Oneness Questions

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ferd

is there any other reason to be here? LOL

Ditto for me!!!

[Sean]

Debates here are healthy in this regard though...we can glean from each others concepts and toss out what we dont want. This will allow us to teach whole heartedly what we believe(after fine tuning) to the world without that little red flag in the back of our minds. People can sense our lack of faith when that little flag is there. I teach what I believe with complete confidence and others hearing me "pick up" on my faith. I do not like to get a "question that I have no answer for" in a public setting. I would rather deal with it here. If I dont truly see it, I simply dont teach it. I only "dabble" with prophecy for instance,...I dont think anyone has it completely figured out...anywhere.(I dont insist my way is right, only suggest)

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

I WILL TELL YOU, BUT ITS GRAPHIC...GOD "CREATED" A SPERM CELL IN THE WOMB OF MARY TO FERTILIZE AN EGG CELL. THAT IS WHERE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON HAD HIS BEGINNINGS. THAT IS WHY HE CALLED HIS GOD(MY FATHER)....THAT IS WHAT BEGOTTEN MEANS. IT IS A HUMAN TERM OF 2 HUMAN BEINGS CREATING ANOTHER ONE. THAT IS WHY JESUS IS CALLED THE (ONLY) "BEGOTTEN" SON OF GOD. (just read the beginnings of the gospels...so and so begat so and so). They were makin' human babies. Jesus was a human baby. JESUS HAD A DAD.

Have you ever noticed that in the two Genealogies that have Jesus in them (Matt 1 and Luke 3) it never uses the word begat about Jesus.

In Jesus birth there was but one human and that was the virgin Mary.

Jesus had no beginning of days:

Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Hebrews 7:3
without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

[Aquila]

I believe the answer transcends human logic. There will be a natural tension with regards to Jesus being "begotten" (as to His humanity) and eternal (as to His divinity). This is why categorical thinking is imparitive in spiritual studies. One must think on two different levels, wherein the possibility of apparent contradiction exists.

For example... some theologians have pondered how divine election and free will work. Clearly, there is some degree of will that is exercized in our choices in Scripture. However, Scripture also states that God has predestined His elect to salvation in accordance to His sovereign will and purposes, that is clearly also true. Obviously these appear to be contractory truths. As of right now there are two leading systematic theologies that have been employed to reconcile both realities (Armenianism and Calvinism). Molinism is a lesser known systematic framework, though many theologians find more issues with that interpretation than in both Armenianism and Calvinism.

Also, please mind you, both Armenianism and Calvinism have subdivisions of interpretive perspective. Some reformed theologians among Calvinism see regeneration as being monergistic and rather peaceful and silent, causing the soul of the elect to simply choose Christ. Others are more dynamic in that they believe that soul of an elect saint of God might resist God's grace for a season until God essentially breaks their will and brings them to surrender at the appointed time. In both opinions... God's grace and purpose is irresistible. Among Armenians you have those who deny man's total depravity, and therefore they believe that man's will is free to accept the Gospel without prompting from God. Yet, other Armenians believe in total depravity and hold that there is a "prevenient grace" that opens the heart of man to receive the Gospel. Both the doctrine of "prevenient grace" and the doctrine "regeneration" serve the same purpose of describing how God draws a soul to Himself prior to their conversion.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

Have you ever noticed that in the two Genealogies that have Jesus in them (Matt 1 and Luke 3) it never uses the word begat about Jesus.

In Jesus birth there was but one human and that was the virgin Mary.

Jesus had no beginning of days:

Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Hebrews 7:3
without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I agree with these passages, interestingly enough,(Colossians 1:15)says Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation...that means He was "born of Mary" before Cain and Abel,

He was also the "First" to be raised from the dead, even (before) Lazarus, Jairus daughter. O.T. figures like the womans son that Elijah raised. etc.(Colossians 1:18)

He was the lamb "slain" from the "foundation' of the world. That means He was crucified before the world began. (REVELATION 13:8)

We dealt with that in the other thread, but you will not be satisfied to hear it once.

Ok, here we go again....

The prophecies in the O.T. are not bound by time...Notice carefully..Is.9:6
"For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given(present tense, around 1000 years PRIOR to the virgin birth)

Same with Ps. 22:1-18...it starts with "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" it goes into the details of the crucifixion in the PRESENT TENSE... (1000 years approx. BEFORE the crucifixion. )


Romans 4:17 says..."God spoke of things that are not, as though they were."

MEANING GOD SPOKE OF THINGS THAT WERE NON EXISTENT AS THOUGH IT ALREADY HAPPENED!

JESUS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE MIND AND WILL OF GOD. HE(GOD) JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK BEFORE IT HAPPENED...I am reconciling all of these passages that were written hundreds of years before they happened and nearly all of them are in the PRESENT TENSE. The standard prophecy uses future tense for things to come, BUT NOT MESSIANIC PROPHECIES...

[Disciple4life]

Originally Posted by bjhs08

Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.

I wonder if we have helped anyone?
We have argued so much to show that we are right but maybe we should be explaining in a simple way who God really is.

[Sean]

Melchesidek in Hebrews 7:3 however is speaking of both Jesus and Melchesidek having no prior "official" geneologies to the Aaronic priesthood. (Not that they were parentless.) That is another debate that is a "rabbit hole" to go down.

[Sean]

Sorry guys, I tried to avoid this, they keep questioning me...I will try to behave. (the flesh is weak)

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

I agree with these passages, interestingly enough,(Colossians 1:15)says Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation...that means He was "born of Mary" before Cain and Abel,

He was also the "First" to be raised from the dead, even (before) Lazarus, Jairus daughter. O.T. figures like the womans son that Elijah raised. etc.(Colossians 1:18)

He was the lamb "slain" from the "foundation' of the world. That means He was crucified before the world began. (REVELATION 13:8)

We dealt with that in the other thread, but you will not be satisfied to hear it once.

Ok, here we go again....

The prophecies in the O.T. are not bound by time...Notice carefully..Is.9:6
"For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given(present tense, around 1000 years PRIOR to the virgin birth)

Same with Ps. 22:1-18...it starts with "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" it goes into the details of the crucifixion in the PRESENT TENSE... (1000 years approx. BEFORE the crucifixion. )


Romans 4:17 says..."God spoke of things that are not, as though they were."

MEANING GOD SPOKE OF THINGS THAT WERE NON EXISTENT AS THOUGH IT ALREADY HAPPENED!

JESUS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE MIND AND WILL OF GOD. HE(GOD) JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK BEFORE IT HAPPENED...I am reconciling all of these passages that were written hundreds of years before they happened and nearly all of them are in the PRESENT TENSE. The standard prophecy uses future tense for things to come, BUT NOT MESSIANIC PROPHECIES...

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Light

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy that is not fulfilled, it is only partly fulfilled just as many others in Isaiah.

Isa 9:6    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given (Fulfilled)

and the government shall be upon his shoulder (not fulfilled)
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(not fulfilled)

Isaiah 9:6 will be completely fulfilled when 1Co 15:24-28 is fulfilled.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Correct...