Oneness Questions

[Light]

Originally Posted by Sean

.I say Jesus IS the Father(after the resurrection)
.

If you are correct the apostle Paul is wrong.

1Co 15:24    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(The end = Someone is giving a kingdom to someone else.)

1Co 15:25    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Someone is reigning until death is destroyed. People are still dying naturally and spiritual. DEATH HAS NOT BEEN DESTROYED)

1Co 15:27    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(Someone put all things under someone except the one doing the putting.)

1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(Isaiah 9:6 is finely fulfilled when the above happens)

[Light]

Originally Posted by Light

If you are correct the apostle Paul is wrong.

1Co 15:24    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(The end = Someone is giving a kingdom to someone else.)

1Co 15:25    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Someone is reigning until death is destroyed. People are still dying naturally and spiritual. DEATH HAS NOT BEEN DESTROYED)

1Co 15:27    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(Someone put all things under someone except the one doing the putting.)

1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(Isaiah 9:6 is finely fulfilled when the above happens)

Isn't it strange not one person claiming to be oneness will address the above scripture.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Light

Isn't it strange not one person claiming to be oneness will address the above scripture.

You just posted them today and now I don't have time. I'll deal with any verse but Im not going to deal with EVERY verse. People have a tendency to argue by "weariness", where they post verse after verse after verse and demand us Oneness deal with each one and write a page long exegesis of each.

I usually tell them to do it themselves and I'll let them know if agree.

But before I deal with a verse, I need to know what Im supposed to be dealing with or what Im supposed to explain in relation to what I believe. Don't just post a verse and demand explanations. Because My response will simply be "I agree with this verse"

[Light]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You just posted them today and now I don't have time. I'll deal with any verse but Im not going to deal with EVERY verse. People have a tendency to argue by "weariness", where they post verse after verse after verse and demand us Oneness deal with each one and write a page long exegesis of each.

I usually tell them to do it themselves and I'll let them know if agree.

But before I deal with a verse, I need to know what Im supposed to be dealing with or what Im supposed to explain in relation to what I believe. Don't just post a verse and demand explanations. Because My response will simply be "I agree with this verse"

I'm sorry they were posted days ago. Post #12 #18 #20 just to name a few.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm sorry they were posted days ago. Post #12 #18 #20 just to name a few.

I responded. The passage in question and your identifying the people in it as God and Jesus respectively points to the notion that you believe Jesus is not God. And here I was thinking you were a trinitarian.

There are many prooftexts for Jesus being God. There are many prooftexts for Jesus being a man. Dual nature doctrine is an attempt to take the whole voice of scripture on the identity of Jesus. Dual nature doctrine interprets those scriptures by simply teaching Jesus was both man and God (and it is one of the many similarities between oneness and trinitarianism). So when you are debating a dual nature believer you cannot point to a scripture that seems to say Jesus is only a man because if dual nature doctrine is correct then being a man doesn't mean Jesus is not also God.

Personally I feel there is a fatal logical flaw in dual nature doctrine but that's a very hard proof to develop and doubly hard since the goal posts and nuances of dual nature doctrine are subject to change at any time without notice.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You just posted them today and now I don't have time. I'll deal with any verse but Im not going to deal with EVERY verse. People have a tendency to argue by "weariness", where they post verse after verse after verse and demand us Oneness deal with each one and write a page long exegesis of each.

I usually tell them to do it themselves and I'll let them know if agree.

But before I deal with a verse, I need to know what Im supposed to be dealing with or what Im supposed to explain in relation to what I believe. Don't just post a verse and demand explanations. Because My response will simply be "I agree with this verse"

Prax, I have something I want you to deal with. Do you believe the pronouns "I, he, she, you" reference persons or beings?

(A person being defined as the doer of actions. A being defined as a person with a nature.)

We have discussed around this topic before and I seem to recall you saying they reference the person. But I say that they reference beings. There is no other explanation for a verse like John 5:26

John 5:26: For as the Father hath life in himself (the divine being God); so hath he (the divine being God) given to the Son to have life in himself (the human being Jesus);

No other usage of the "he" pronouns makes sense there. Do you agree? And if you agree then can you explain how the bible when referring to Jesus, could ever have called him God? (Since references to Jesus most certainly would refer to the human being, the man Jesus Christ and not the person Jesus Christ who also happens to be God?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Prax, I have something I want you to deal with. Do you believe the pronouns "I, he, she, you" reference persons or beings?

The answer is yes, but not always since in Greek even non persons can be called a HE or SHE...

I say yes to both "persons" or "Beings" without qualification as to what the word "person" means. In other words, pronouns don't define the word Person, they just indicate a grammatical subject

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The answer is yes, but not always since in Greek even non persons can be called a HE or SHE...

I say yes to both "persons" or "Beings" without qualification as to what the word "person" means. In other words, pronouns don't define the word Person, they just indicate a grammatical subject

So of the verses you believe declare that Jesus is God, how do you know the pronouns in those verses reference a person and not a being? Is the meaning of the pronoun dictated by your theology or does the meaning of a pronoun stand alone and apart from your theology?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Light

If you are correct the apostle Paul is wrong.

1Co 15:24    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(The end = Someone is giving a kingdom to someone else.)

1Co 15:25    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Someone is reigning until death is destroyed. People are still dying naturally and spiritual. DEATH HAS NOT BEEN DESTROYED)

1Co 15:27    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(Someone put all things under someone except the one doing the putting.)

1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(Isaiah 9:6 is finely fulfilled when the above happens)

This is not my specialty on this certain passage but David Bernard said the role of the Son has an end in this passage...What say ye?