Oneness Questions - Page 16

Aquila · #**151** 05-02-2014, 06:42 AM

Jesus speaks of His Father in the Revelation, long after the ascension. That being said, I believe a personal distinction still exists. Jesus is clearly now a glorified man who remains one with God, as He was on earth prior to His glorification.

Sean · #**152** 05-02-2014, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus speaks of His Father in the Revelation, long after the ascension. That being said, I believe a personal distinction still exists. Jesus is clearly now a glorified man who remains one with God, as He was on earth prior to His glorification.

Brother Aquila, you see what I see....this must be addressed. (Every) passage must have an explanation or we are right back at "square one". Whatever we finally believe as set in stone, it must have all bases covered. I love to be around "deep thinking" brethren that ask questions about the unusual passages.

Sean · #**153** 05-02-2014, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquila

they might believe that jesus had god "in" him. However, i see the "in him" as not being like one sits in a car. But rather "in him" means within his very being. They are "one". On an unexplainable spiritual level they are one (in union). Jesus is therefore a man who was one with god from conception. That means that jesus is truly a man. However, the man christ jesus was also god.

I believe the word "person" to denote a distinct "self-conscious" reality. The "i" that speaks to "thou". Therefore, we see a human person in the man christ jesus, especially when he prays to or speaks of the father. And a divine person in the father, especially when he speaks to or speaks of the man christ jesus (the son). Although we see two distinct "persons" (self-conscious realities) they share a union in being. They are one.

Examples often help, especially when concepts that are theoretical like this are being discussed. I posted this before, but here is an example of the way i see it:

sit back and imagine hanging out with jesus as one of the disciples. You'd be observing a man... One who is clearly a man... Yet you'd sense that this man is also... God. And while on most occasions he'd speak as a man who loved his heavenly father and faithfully prayed to his heavenly father... There would also be times wherein he would speak from the divine prerogative as though he were his heavenly father. You might even begin to get goose-bumps when jesus was beginning to teach and got "the look"... Or what you've come to know as "the god look". You'd sense that this wasn't merely a man. He is a man who is also god.

there is a mutual "indwelling". Divinity indwelling humanity, and with that, humanity indwelling divinity. Jesus put it this way...

john 10:30
30 i and my father are one. (kjv)

john 10:38
38 but if i do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: That ye may know, and believe, that the father is in me, and i in him. (kjv)

john 12:45
45 and he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (kjv)

john 14:7-10
7 if ye had known me, ye should have known my father also: And from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 philip saith unto him, lord, shew us the father, and it sufficeth us.
9 jesus saith unto him, have i been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the father?
10 believest thou not that i am in the father, and the father in me? The words that i speak unto you i speak not of myself: But the father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (kjv)

the indwells a human being, the man jesus christ. There is no getting around it. Those are the very words jesus used to describe his oneness with the father. You see, he is jesus, the son of god. A man who was one with god from his very conception. The man in which god chose to manifest himself, and through whom god chose to reveal his very own glory. A man, in whom the father chose to share his very being and nature with a human being. Jesus was indeed a man. And... So much more.

wow....awesome thread

obriencp · #**154** 05-02-2014, 07:45 AM

very good discussion points in this thread.

I, too, am a little leary of labels, but I can see how they are used all the time (albiet at times, a little too loosely). When i tell people in my former circle that i don't really believe there is that much of a difference between the trinitarian and the oneness view of the Godhead, they tend to look at me like i'm lost (or easing up in my beliefs). It seems that if you really study the Godhead for yourself and stop viewing the other side through the eyes of what you've been told about it, most of the arguement is over the terminology used.

I do believe that the glorified/resurrected Jesus is God and Lord of all. When we get to heaven, we will see one sitting on the throne as He has been exhaulted, all power is given to him, and He has been made Lord of All. Being that He is the image of the invisible God and we are after the resurrection, Jesus is no longer in the role of the lamb or son and he has now taken on a more accurate image, or representation, of what God is. We cannot see God (spirit), but we can see that symbol, image, representation, of God, Jesus Christ.

I pray to Jesus and use phrases like Jesus, Lord, God, and my Savior. I do not use the term Father, but maybe that's just how I was raised.

carry on...

Sean · #**155** 05-02-2014, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obriencp

very good discussion points in this thread.

I, too, am a little leary of labels, but I can see how they are used all the time (albiet at times, a little too loosely). When i tell people in my former circle that i don't really believe there is that much of a difference between the trinitarian and the oneness view of the Godhead, they tend to look at me like i'm lost (or easing up in my beliefs). It seems that if you really study the Godhead for yourself and stop viewing the other side through the eyes of what you've been told about it, most of the arguement is over the terminology used.

I do believe that the glorified/resurrected Jesus is God and Lord of all. When we get to heaven, we will see one sitting on the throne as He has been exhaulted, all power is given to him, and He has been made Lord of All. Being that He is the image of the invisible God and we are after the resurrection, Jesus is no longer in the role of the lamb or son and he has now taken on a more accurate image, or representation, of what God is. We cannot see God (spirit), but we can see that symbol, image, representation, of God, Jesus Christ.

I pray to Jesus and use phrases like Jesus, Lord, God, and my Savior. I do not use the term Father, but maybe that's just how I was raised.

carry on...

Brother, your thread is "spot on" with what I believe. This whole thing is "opened up" because of the questions of the "humanity" of Jesus while he walked the earth for 33 years. After the ascencion, we all (pretty much) agree, I think.

Aquila · #**156** 05-02-2014, 08:34 AM

I try to translate it into what a real time experience would be. For example, let's imagine that Jesus was attending church with us. He'd attend services, sometimes preach, and clean the church. He might be in choir. He'd attend prayer meetings with us and pray to the Father as His very own Father. We'd see him cough, laugh, excuse Himself to go to the restroom, tie His shoes, eat at Denny's, and maybe debate some pastors. He'd be a contractor working for some masonry company or something. He'd have a work schedule and even have to cash His paycheck to pay bills. He might even have some brothers and sisters who visit Him from time to time. Maybe He'd drive a modest Ford pickup and we'd load up and go fishing during the Summers. Over the campfire He'd share with us thoughts about the Bible that would just blow our minds! He'd also challenge us to deeper prayer and faith. Some people would love Him. Others would hate Him. He'd seem like an ordinary man. And indeed... He would be. He'd be a genuine human person.

However...

That's not all there is to Him. You see... He'd also be seen healing the sick, raising the dead, calming the storms, feeding thousands with a can of Tuna and some Saltine crackers. He'd forgive sins, when only God can forgive sins. He'd get this strange look in His eyes and then all of the sudden something purely "divine" and absolutely authoritative would begin to flow through Him and His words. He'd say, "I and my Father... are one." He'd say, "I am in my Father and my Father in me." We'd understand that this man, the human person of Jesus Christ, was claiming absolute union with God Almighty. We'd begin to realize that while yes, Jesus is a man, He's also God Himself. Tack on the Father granting Him all power and authority. He'd be a human being who was the very extension of God's own person, walking the earth.

To me, this is very simple and honest with the text. In my opinion, this is a glaring truth in the Scripture. Jesus is an authentic human person. A man. A human being. Yet He is also one with God, His Father. So in Christ, we see both the Father and the Son. We see a human person and a divine person sharing a union of being and essence. In Jesus, God became a man. In Jesus we also realize that this man... is also God. When we hear Him... we hear the Father. When we see Him, we see the Father. They indwell one another. Their very being, essence, and nature are in absolute union. Each partaking in the other's existence. Jesus and His Father are truly... one.

Oneness.

Aquila · #**157** 05-02-2014, 08:46 AM

Now, after the resurrection, this man has been glorified. The distinction of His person still exists. And yes, He's still the very man in whom God is manifest. However, now He's glorified. His flesh and blood humanity has taken on immortality. And this being said, it is possible for this glorified human being, the man Christ Jesus, to be at the right hand of glory and power. Yes, it is possible for Him to take the book out of the hand of the Father whose being and very life is manifest in Him. He's still one with the Father. Yet distinct enough to take the book and even still speak of His Father. Nothing has changed accept now the man, Christ Jesus, is glorified and is before God interceding for us, the elect of God.

Light · #**158** 05-02-2014, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

.I say Jesus IS the Father(after the resurrection)
.

If you are correct the apostle Paul is wrong.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(The end = Someone is giving a kingdom to someone else.)

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Someone is reigning until death is destroyed. People are still dying naturally and spiritual. DEATH HAS NOT BEEN DESTROYED)

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(Someone put all things under someone except the one doing the putting.)

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(Isaiah 9:6 is finely fulfilled when the above happens)

Light · #**159** 05-02-2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light

If you are correct the apostle Paul is wrong.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(The end = Someone is giving a kingdom to someone else.)

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Someone is reigning until death is destroyed. People are still dying naturally and spiritual. DEATH HAS NOT BEEN DESTROYED)

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(Someone put all things under someone except the one doing the putting.)

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(Isaiah 9:6 is finely fulfilled when the above happens)

Isn't it strange not one person claiming to be oneness will address the above scripture.

Praxeas · #**160** 05-02-2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

The way I see it Prax, when Jesus was on earth, being he was a man, YES

But "after" the resurrection....NO

The unitarians say Jesus is not God, I say He is the only true God......I say Jesus IS the Father(after the resurrection)

See...that is what I said YOU said several times now. I noted that twist at the end. Right? You believe there were two persons and one was God and one was not while Jesus was on earth. That is Unitarianism. The "Twist" is that He got absorbed back into God and now there is just One Person and He (Jesus) is God.

I've been following what you claim to believe. Ive repeated it back to you several times and then you repeat what you believe