Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Never looked at the 'queen' James version. Your book says that's an abomination. Did you read that part?

...Waiting to read something sensible here.

Was using the literal translation. Literal translation says messenger.

Everyone knows ANGEL means MESSENGER. That changes nothing to make your argument being correct. Who cares what version we read? They all give the same point.

I was making fun of you when I said that the book doesn't say how many alphas and omegas there are. Know why? Let me summarize your logic.

You brought up Rev 22 I did not.

I brought up the references to the Alpha and Omega, in Rev 1. You will not respond to that. It is MY FULL REASON for proving Jesus is God.

John is writing about a messenger that he is standing with. You said that the messenger was not Jesus 3 posts back because John starts to worship him and the messenger says (verse 8-9) "do not bow to me bow to God". Let's review.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Then the same messenger in verse 13 says:

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger. I showed you scholars' explanations of the reference to the angel/messenger, and all of them agree the angel/messenger is one of the many angels/messengers such as the ones I showed you were one of the seven angels/messengers came to John.

So you come back and say: "I am the Alpha and Omega" means "I am God" and this is your basis for concluding "Jesus is God" but 4 verses up in the same chapter John is specifically advised not to do this.

John was NOT TALKING TO JESUS when the angel was speaking to him. You have this so confused it is really weird. Like I said, show me one witness from a scholar's writings to prove the MESSENGER is Jesus in Revelation 1. You cannot just make these things up and expect everyone to agree with you just because you say it is so.

So yes, I am making fun of your logic. Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, the same "Alpha and Omega" said "I am a fellow servant of you and your brethren the prophets and you need to bow before God, not me" and what makes it really funny is that it was said only (4) verses before your "great God insight".

No, the ALPHA AND OMEGA never said such a thing.

You want to know who the messenger angel of Rev 22 is? You havbe to go back to chapter 21 to see the specific angel who was sent. And look what he is called:

Rev 21:9 KJV And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

As to hot potatoes I would guess that chapter 5 is one since you are avoiding that question like one.

Chapter 5 is an issue altogether apart from the issue I raised. Now, since I raised the issue of the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY as my main argument, I am talking about the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY. THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.

You refuse to deal with it. You have not yet dealt with the Alpha and Omega saying He is the ALMIGHTY!

So read it again.

Why is the Alpha and Omega shown to call Himself the ALMIGHTY and then call Himself the one who died and is alive?

If your bible was good enough for you then you would not need Adam Clark or John Gill or Albert Barnes to explain it. The words explain themselves. You need to go back and tell Adam Clark and John Gill and Albert Barnes that Jesus said:

I know the words explain themselves. lol. I am just showing you that NO ONE AGREES WITH YOUR READING TREND to say the ANGEL is Jesus in Rev 1. I gave evidence to show you that others agree with me. I did not get my belief about it from those writers, but showed you that they claimed that what I also see is what they saw.

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

and then consider these words for yourself? Nobody here asked "what do you think it says" - the question was what does it say

The LAMB took a scroll from the right hand of God on the throne. The LAMB was not on the throne. Was this Jesus or not? Answer?

When are you going to talk about the ALpha and Omega calling Himself ALMIGHTY? That was my argument. You have yet to disprove it. How many days now have you failed to respond to my main argument.

Everything else can be explained AFTER we deal with this point, I promise. BUT THIS POINT is my main argument. Stop playing here and deal with it.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

...
No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger.

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

What's your point here?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What's your point here?

What's yours? Do you have one?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are ascking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.

I have answered it. "Alpha and Omega" cannot possibly mean what you say it means if Jesus and God are in two separate places at the same location at the same time doing two separate things, nor can it possibly mean what you say it means if you say Jesus said it and during those times he is not sitting on God's throne, but was doing other things. I am mildly amused that if these messengers say one thing they are Jesus but if they say another in the same passage of the same story then OH well it has to be someone else.

Adding to this amusement is how Jesus is separated from "angels" in one book and and lumped with the other "messengers" in another (this one being the literal translation) which makes me unstunned that using one version at least helps explain your point while you really want to stay out of the literal version, for that I do not blame you at all. I will make a quiet comment that shouldn't they all say the same thing though?

What you cannot do is explain this nor can you find a passage where it is Jesus, Jesus only, sitting on the throne of the Almighty, a passage that will overcome all of the other passages sprinkled through the book where Jesus deferred to God as having given him power or sent him. All you can do is say "but.....but...... Jesus said this" without addressing the written description(s) of the visions of heaven, where God is, and where Jesus is at the same point in time, in a different place doing different things.

Or can you? Perhaps another scholar? Surely there is a real heavyweight out there that absent the words in the actual book could dish up an explanation. Innocent curiosity only. If so you could sell that too on your gospel website. Imagine the profit!

OH - Did you say earlier that Jesus was ruling the earth right now? Was that from yet another scholar? I declare that He will, but not just yet.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I have answered it.

No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.

Bye

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No you have not.

So see ya later.

Sure I have. My answer was and is and will always be that this does not mean what you say it means because it is in conflict with literally dozens of passages that clearly say something different.

The issue here is that you can't sidestep that answer, so you're leaving.

This forum is not a bully pulpit for non-believers.

If any of you feel bullied by specific, unchanged passages from your own book then the problem here is not me

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.

Hebrews: This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis: Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

mmmmmmk......to be a priest you have to defer to SOMEBODY right? Otherwise Melchizedek would be priest to.....Jesus BUT Jesus would be a priest to? El Elyon - that's the God of Melchizedek