Is there going to be a rapture????

[Sean]

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

The great Tribulation is not about mans wrath on mankind, but GODS' wrath on sinners. The book of Revelation shows us BILLIONS of souls slain BY GOD as the calamities are coming from God Himself. God WILL NOT destroy the righteous with the wicked...our father Abraham got it from the Lord himself here... Gen 18

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



This is how the Lord operates, prior to HIS WRATH being poured out on mankind. The righteous WILL be removed first, then WRATH will come.

Notice this passage is in the same context as the 'catching away" in 1 Thes. 4....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is my intro, rebuttals will follow...

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Sean

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

The great Tribulation is not about mans wrath on mankind, but GODS' wrath on sinners. The book of Revelation shows us BILLIONS of souls slain BY GOD as the calamities are coming from God Himself. God WILL NOT destroy the righteous with the wicked...our father Abraham got it from the Lord himself here... Gen 18

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



This is how the Lord operates, prior to HIS WRATH being poured out on mankind. The righteous WILL be removed first, then WRATH will come.

Notice this passage is in the same context as the 'catching away" in 1 Thes. 4....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is my intro, rebuttals will follow...

I would just make this one point. When God poured wrath upon the Egyptians he left Israel in Egypt while he did it. It was the blood that caused the wrath of God to pass over them.

This text comes to mine.
John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I would just make this one point. When God poured wrath upon the Egyptians he left Israel in Egypt while he did it. It was the blood that caused the wrath of God to pass over them.

This text comes to mine.
John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Great Tribulation is not to be compared with everyday life that we encounter bro. I have heard some try to say that the Lord will put a force field of some type around the saints during the tribulation, but there is NO passage to explain that idea.(that came from the sci-fi channel)

I forgot to post the Egyptian thing you just posted with my initial post. Thank you, that is also relevant to my point.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

The Great Tribulation is not to be compared with everyday life that we encounter bro. I have heard some try to say that the Lord will put a force field of some type around the saints during the tribulation, but there is NO passage to explain that idea.(that came from the sci-fi channel)

I forgot to post the Egyptian thing you just posted with my initial post. Thank you, that is also relevant to my point.

So the so called "tribulation saints", those who missed the rapture or brand new converts who got a second chance salvation would be able to stand up before the beast and give their lives for Yeshua Christ.......but the faithful saints who had served and loved him for years would not be able to go through such horrible things!

Think again Bro. There are Catholic believers right now having their heads cut off because they will not deny Jesus Christ. And "Apostolic Pentecostal" believers are out there teaching that THEY COULD NOT go through such terrible times!

It is never everyday times when you and your family are going to have your heads cut off or be sawn in half as is taking place NOW.

And yet is God able to bring his saints into a place where he can feed them from the face of the devil?

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:5-6

And:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:13-14

So yes! God is able to keep his people in the day of his anger!


2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zepheniah 2:2-3

This is for a special group. The meek who have been doing his will.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the so called "tribulation saints", those who missed the rapture or brand new converts who got a second chance salvation would be able to stand up before the beast and give their lives for Yeshua Christ.......but the faithful saints who had served and loved him for years would not be able to go through such horrible things!
The tribulation saints we read about are specifically 144,000 divided into 12 tribes of Israel. They will be slaughtered and resurrected at the final phase of the 1st resurrection..

Think again Bro. There are Catholic believers right now having their heads cut off because they will not deny Jesus Christ. And "Apostolic Pentecostal" believers are out there teaching that THEY COULD NOT go through such terrible times!

It is never everyday times when you and your family are going to have your heads cut off or be sawn in half as is taking place NOW.

And yet is God able to bring his saints into a place where he can feed them from the face of the devil?

Yes, my brother...HEAVEN. There is no passage that gives the saints a hiding place from the Antichrist......as a matter of fact, to those that the Lord considers saints(the 144,000 etc), Antichrist will make WAR with them and OVERCOME them.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:5-6

And:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:13-14

So yes! God is able to keep his people in the day of his anger!



Brother Michael, this is speaking of Israel being kept from obliteration of the antichrist. Jesus came from the Jewish people ....13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zepheniah 2:2-3

This is speaking to the Jews, Michael, not Gentiles....

This is for a special group. The meek who have been doing his will.

Michael..this is spoken directly after the rapture and is considered part of the conversation by Paul....
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Now Michael, look at this....this depicts the events of the Great Tribulation...Revelation 19:15

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Rev 16 also...

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore Ex. 9.10 upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 ¶ And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 ¶ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. Ex. 7.17-21
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 ¶ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 ¶ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; Ex. 10.21 and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.



Brother Michael, Biblically speaking, the born again saints will not even see these things transpire.....