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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #31  
Old 08-21-2014, 06:09 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks
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  #32  
Old 08-21-2014, 06:30 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks
Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.
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  #33  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:02 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

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Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.
No I didnt, I dont have anything on paper myself, just a head full of passages and their interpretations. I used SFT all these years and got into it with mid and post trib folks from time to time, but I know where you are going and where you stand, just by reading your posts. Keep in mind, with me, it it my point of view and we are only talking about the timing of the Lords' return.

Its no big deal between us bro., but I believe my message is a greater message of hope than post trib. And I think I have enough of the scripture to confidently teach it.


I realize I am up against one of the "greats" in Irvin Baxter. I just heard him get smoked though by a trinitarian on a TV program debate recently. When I saw that, I realized this concept was still up for grabs and nobody, including myself, has it set in stone.

My rebuttal will be only to give us a different point of view if you dont mind.
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  #34  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:14 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

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No I didnt, I dont have anything on paper myself, just a head full of passages and their interpretations. I used SFT all these years and got into it with mid and post trib folks from time to time, but I know where you are going and where you stand, just by reading your posts. Keep in mind, with me, it it my point of view and we are only talking about the timing of the Lords' return.

Its no big deal between us bro., but I believe my message is a greater message of hope than post trib. And I think I have enough of the scripture to confidently teach it.


I realize I am up against one of the "greats" in Irvin Baxter. I just heard him get smoked though by a trinitarian on a TV program debate recently. When I saw that, I realized this concept was still up for grabs and nobody, including myself, has it set in stone.

My rebuttal will be only to give us a different point of view if you dont mind.
To me its a big deal as with all the teachings of Yeshua. He gave them to us disciples that we may benefit from them. Obviously the pre trib would be a nicer hope IF IT WERE TRUE. Just like OSAS.

However since its is a false hope it cannot profit the saints but rather deceive them. That's why Paul said "let no man deceive you by any means that day shall not come unless there be a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition".

As for as Bro Baxter goes I did not learn this from him. I saw this in 1976 after the leader of our street ministry corrected me after we had a discussion about it.

We both were pre trib but he had come to greater truth. In short order he convinced me because the post trib was far more weighty in scripture.

I heard of Irvin Baxter about 4 years later after I had become Oneness.

BTW what is SFT?

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 08-21-2014 at 07:16 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:28 PM
Carl Carl is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

Hi Michael. What do you think of II Thessalonians 2:7? " For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way".
I was always taught the "He" is the Holy Ghost within believers who will be taken away or raptured pre-trib. Thanks for your response.
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  #36  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:33 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

The great Tribulation is not about mans wrath on mankind, but GODS' wrath on sinners. The book of Revelation shows us BILLIONS of souls slain BY GOD as the calamities are coming from God Himself. God WILL NOT destroy the righteous with the wicked...our father Abraham got it from the Lord himself here... Gen 18

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



This is how the Lord operates, prior to HIS WRATH being poured out on mankind. The righteous WILL be removed first, then WRATH will come.

Notice this passage is in the same context as the 'catching away" in 1 Thes. 4....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is my intro, rebuttals will follow...

Last edited by Sean; 08-21-2014 at 07:42 PM.
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  #37  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:40 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

BTW what is SFT?


Michael, it is Search for Truth...I am sure you heard of that, right?
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  #38  
Old 08-21-2014, 08:03 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

Heading to work will catch up with you tomorrow Lord willing.
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  #39  
Old 08-21-2014, 08:04 PM
kclee4jc kclee4jc is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

I am not a scholar by any means. Sean and MTD both seem so much more advanced in the scripture thank myself. It I would love to engage in the dialog here because it has been of great interest to me in the last coupe years. I do want to say..there are many great men of God in my life that are solidly pre-trib. Some of the greatest scholars and bible teachers I know are pre-trib...so I mean absolutely no disrespect when I disagree with the pre-trib view point.

One of my greatest fears of pre-trib teaching is a false sense of security. A feeling of exemption from tribulation and persecution when Jesus promised both.
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  #40  
Old 08-21-2014, 08:12 PM
kclee4jc kclee4jc is offline
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Re: Is there going to be a rapture????

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.
Read a book by an Apostolic Brother a while back that used this scripture to establish a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. If that is the case the same logic would have to be used in the beginning of chapter 1 as well.


1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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