I am much more trusting of historical records when they deal with ordinary events -- elections, bank robberies, marriages, deaths, treaties, etc. -- than supernatural.
This is what I always find funny on how this culture is turning. There was a time they would believe everything in their religion through blind faith. Now, teachers, doctors, and talking heads on the news are the new priesthood. The devout atheist who bangs the drum being the town crier of intellectual freedom, bow before the holy halls of science, history, modern medicine, and the priesthood of the mainstream media. Funny how most atheists were once preaching some religious dogma go to preaching some statist doctrine.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
If you believe reports of God speaking, which reports do you believe? You can't know. You cannot. You do think you know, and you have made guesses, but that's the best you can do: guess. You have reasons for choosing the Bible over, say, the Quran. Muslims have their reasons, too.
Timmy how much do you know about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or even the history of Christianity? How much study have you applied to the teachings of these other religions? When Richard Alpert a.k.a Ram Dass, met Neem Karoli Baba, Alpert was an unbelieving scientist, but after that one meeting he ended up abandoning his life in America to be "literally" at the feet of that guru. Richard Alpert went to India and found religious devotees who were in a state of worship which he only found on LSD. A family from England traveled all the way from Waco Texas to be part of a church called the Branch Davidians. Were they on the right path? I don't believe so, because we shouldn't just rely on personal experience, but on much more. In the Rig Veda, the stories of the many different avatars of Vishnu teach ethics very different from the Bible. They teach that man must be bond to his fate, no matter what, if he was the son of a king, he must become a king, if he was born the son of a priest then he must become a priest. If a man is born the son of an untouchable he must stay an untouchable. The teachings of Christ and the Bible overcome all that, but also teaches that whatever state you are in be content. In everything give thanks, not just trying to ascend suffering through harsh punishments to the body.
With all that said, Biblical spiritual truth still cannot penetrate the mind of the insincere, because they just don't care. Through intellectualism and philosophy they search for a god to suit their own needs, but became disappointed. Jesus said the way is narrow and the door has a very small opening, few were the number who enter in. If you don't care, it just isn't for you. The pearl of great price had a cost, but man has a problem where he wants to remain an immature child, and therefore he forfeits the prize of spiritual maturity. If we go to any sacred book of any religion with the mind to disprove it, then we aren't reading it, nor can we understand what the writer is trying to say to his audience. The Quran is contradicted by the Hadiths, but still the Quran teaches that Christians believe in a Trinity. The Vedic texts teach that who you were in a past life must effect who you are in this life, you are bond, and cannot escape the crimes of all your past lives. In this life you must try to atone. My father and grandfather were atheists, and I found no solace in their teachings of "nothing out there but us."
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
This is what I always find funny on how this culture is turning. There was a time they would believe everything in their religion through blind faith. Now, teachers, doctors, and talking heads on the news are the new priesthood. The devout atheist who bangs the drum being the town crier of intellectual freedom, bow before the holy halls of science, history, modern medicine, and the priesthood of the mainstream media. Funny how most atheists were once preaching some religious dogma go to preaching some statist doctrine.
Timmy how much do you know about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or even the history of Christianity? How much study have you applied to the teachings of these other religions? When Richard Alpert a.k.a Ram Dass, met Neem Karoli Baba, Alpert was an unbelieving scientist, but after that one meeting he ended up abandoning his life in America to be "literally" at the feet of that guru. Richard Alpert went to India and found religious devotees who were in a state of worship which he only found on LSD. A family from England traveled all the way from Waco Texas to be part of a church called the Branch Davidians. Were they on the right path? I don't believe so, because we shouldn't just rely on personal experience, but on much more. In the Rig Veda, the stories of the many different avatars of Vishnu teach ethics very different from the Bible. They teach that man must be bond to his fate, no matter what, if he was the son of a king, he must become a king, if he was born the son of a priest then he must become a priest. If a man is born the son of an untouchable he must stay an untouchable. The teachings of Christ and the Bible overcome all that, but also teaches that whatever state you are in be content. In everything give thanks, not just trying to ascend suffering through harsh punishments to the body.
With all that said, Biblical spiritual truth still cannot penetrate the mind of the insincere, because they just don't care. Through intellectualism and philosophy they search for a god to suit their own needs, but became disappointed. Jesus said the way is narrow and the door has a very small opening, few were the number who enter in. If you don't care, it just isn't for you. The pearl of great price had a cost, but man has a problem where he wants to remain an immature child, and therefore he forfeits the prize of spiritual maturity. If we go to any sacred book of any religion with the mind to disprove it, then we aren't reading it, nor can we understand what the writer is trying to say to his audience. The Quran is contradicted by the Hadiths, but still the Quran teaches that Christians believe in a Trinity. The Vedic texts teach that who you were in a past life must effect who you are in this life, you are bond, and cannot escape the crimes of all your past lives. In this life you must try to atone. My father and grandfather were atheists, and I found no solace in their teachings of "nothing out there but us."
So you chose the one that was the most appealing to you. Somehow, you seem to think that means it is the true one. But I think what it really means is that it "works" for you, in some sense. That's fine. It didn't work for me.
Finding solace is a good thing, no doubt about it. You have hope of seeing your loved ones again -- certain loved ones, anyway. Others, well, I guess knowing they will suffer forever doesn't hurt your solace? They deserve it, after all.
Now, having chosen the Bible to believe, that's just the beginning, of course. You have to decide how to believe it. Which things are to be taken literally, how to follow its instructions, which instructions apply to you, etc. Not to mention, which Bible to follow. There are something like 8 different canons in use by modern Christians.
But I suppose none of these decisions need any guesswork? What, is it a matter of asking the Holy Spirit to make them for you? Is that what you did? Is that what Crakjak did? The Pope? Joseph Smith?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So you chose the one that was the most appealing to you. Somehow, you seem to think that means it is the true one. But I think what it really means is that it "works" for you, in some sense. That's fine. It didn't work for me.
Simon had Jesus come to his home, then Jesus points out a number of things which were customary for their culture. One was foot washing, another was a greeting with a kiss, then for a special guest the oil for the head. Jesus points those things out to Simon right after Jesus reads Simon's thoughts on how Simon believed that he had found the proof that Jesus was a charlatan a false prophet. Because no real truth teller could possibly allow a prostitute to wash His feet. You see, Simon didn't ask Jesus to come to his home because he wanted truth, but because he was waiting for Jesus to do or say something to prove that it was all a lie. Like I said the search for truth ain't for everybody.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Finding solace is a good thing, no doubt about it. You have hope of seeing your loved ones again -- certain loved ones, anyway. Others, well, I guess knowing they will suffer forever doesn't hurt your solace? They deserve it, after all.
You see Timmy, that's how YOU believed (might still do) how there are those who "deserve it."
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Now, having chosen the Bible to believe, that's just the beginning, of course. You have to decide how to believe it. Which things are to be taken literally, how to follow its instructions, which instructions apply to you, etc. Not to mention, which Bible to follow. There are something like 8 different canons in use by modern Christians.
Do you read Greek Timmy?
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Originally Posted by Timmy
But I suppose none of these decisions need any guesswork? What, is it a matter of asking the Holy Spirit to make them for you? Is that what you did? Is that what Crakjak did? The Pope? Joseph Smith?
The Spirit of Truth will guide you into all truth.
I believe I posted this before? If I didn't I will post it now, the study of the Bible or any sacred book, isn't one of intellectualism, or a philosophical endeavor, but one where you have a sincere heart, who is being led by a real God. Abraham coming out of a pagan culture to follow the one true living God.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Simon had Jesus come to his home, then Jesus points out a number of things which were customary for their culture. One was foot washing, another was a greeting with a kiss, then for a special guest the oil for the head. Jesus points those things out to Simon right after Jesus reads Simon's thoughts on how Simon believed that he had found the proof that Jesus was a charlatan a false prophet. Because no real truth teller could possibly allow a prostitute to wash His feet. You see, Simon didn't ask Jesus to come to his home because he wanted truth, but because he was waiting for Jesus to do or say something to prove that it was all a lie. Like I said the search for truth ain't for everybody.
That's for sure.
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You see Timmy, that's how YOU believed (might still do) how there are those who "deserve it."
You mean you don't? Please explain.
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Do you read Greek Timmy?
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The Spirit of Truth will guide you into all truth.
I am pretty sure he does not actually do that. But yes, it is one of those promises you have. Like a sound mind. Like healing.
Has he guided you into all truth? Has he guided Crakjak into all truth?
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I believe I posted this before? If I didn't I will post it now, the study of the Bible or any sacred book, isn't one of intellectualism, or a philosophical endeavor, but one where you have a sincere heart, who is being led by a real God. Abraham coming out of a pagan culture to follow the one true living God.
So everyone who reads it and doesn't believe it is not sincere. Got it.
And everyone who read it and believed it for, say, 50 years, but then wakes up and starts to see things differently, well, I guess they were sincere but aren't anymore. OK.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Finding solace is a good thing, no doubt about it. You have hope of seeing your loved ones again -- certain loved ones, anyway. Others, well, I guess knowing they will suffer forever doesn't hurt your solace? They deserve it, after all.
No one is pleased with the fate of the wicked, not even God Himself. Do they deserve it? Hey, life choices, and your life choices were your own. If you left them up to guess work, well let me just say that wasn't a good choice.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
I am pretty sure he does not actually do that.
That's your opinion.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
But yes, it is one of those promises you have. Like a sound mind. Like healing.
But of course, that's what the Bible says Timmy.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Has he guided you into all truth? Has he guided Crakjak into all truth?
I believe that God is doing His job, and we need to do our job. Teaching doesn't mean everyone gets it at the same time, or at the same pace. While I think CJ's teachings are off, and he believes what I believe is some adopted teaching from 325 A.D.. God is trying to lead, according of our proportion of desire for Him. This will either propel CJ and I forward or keep us where we are. You on the other hand made up your mind (for now) to dis God, and make yourself the master of your reality. We who believe in Jesus, CJ and myself are Neanderthals, and you are the pioneer of a brave new world. You are wise in your own eyes, more than happy to be thrown into the flames to be purged until you say UNCLE, (CJ's belief) to enter into eternal bliss, or be tormented day and night forever and ever (what I believe) because of your OWN choosing. Again, we all have free will, and you need to use it properly.
Yet, be it purging through flames, or torments, these matters are nothing more than mythologies to you, being spouted by religious midgets on a forum. Yet, we all die Timmy, so when we die, then all will be proven, whether they were right or wrong.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
So everyone who reads it and doesn't believe it is not sincere. Got it.
And everyone who read it and believed it for, say, 50 years, but then wakes up and starts to see things differently, well, I guess they were sincere but aren't anymore. OK.
Hypothetical guy who reads a religious book for 50 years becomes hypothetically enlightened then sees things differently?
No sincerity in finding God, then you are sincerely following something which isn't God.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
No one is pleased with the fate of the wicked, not even God Himself. Do they deserve it? Hey, life choices, and your life choices were your own. If you left them up to guess work, well let me just say that wasn't a good choice.
Your comment: "You see Timmy, that's how YOU believed (might still do) how there are those who 'deserve it.'" From that, I inferred that you don't believe they deserve their eternal punishment. No, I'm not sure, as you don't like to give clear answers to simple questions, but it seems that you do?
Calling them wicked helps, I suppose. People like me, who don't believe what you do and so will burn in hell forever. Wicked ol' me.
SMH.
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That's your opinion.
Yes it is.
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But of course, that's what the Bible says Timmy.
Does every Christian have the sound mind they are promised? The peace? The joy?
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I believe that God is doing His job, and we need to do our job. Teaching doesn't mean everyone gets it at the same time, or at the same pace. While I think CJ's teachings are off, and he believes what I believe is some adopted teaching from 325 A.D.. God is trying to lead, according of our proportion of desire for Him. This will either propel CJ and I forward or keep us where we are. You on the other hand made up your mind (for now) to dis God,
I have never dissed God.
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and make yourself the master of your reality.
You are the master of yours, also. Dispute that, if you can.
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We who believe in Jesus, CJ and myself are Neanderthals, and you are the pioneer of a brave new world. You are wise in your own eyes, more than happy to be thrown into the flames to be purged until you say UNCLE, (CJ's belief) to enter into eternal bliss, or be tormented day and night forever and ever (what I believe) because of your OWN choosing. Again, we all have free will, and you need to use it properly.
I am not happy to be thrown into flames. I won't be. Nobody will. There is no reason to believe that your myth is true, any more than any other religious imaginings are true. None.
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Yet, be it purging through flames, or torments, these matters are nothing more than mythologies to you, being spouted by religious midgets on a forum. Yet, we all die Timmy, so when we die, then all will be proven, whether they were right or wrong.
Do you hope you are right and I'm wrong? My prediction is that when we die, we are just dead. We are no longer, just as we didn't exist before we were born (or conceived, if you prefer). But your prediction is that I will suffer forever, and you will be happy forever. Is that your preference?
Do you really want it to end up as you think God designed it?
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Hypothetical guy who reads a religious book for 50 years becomes hypothetically enlightened then sees things differently?
No sincerity in finding God, then you are sincerely following something which isn't God.
You know a lot of things that you can't possibly know. Like my sincerity. But sure, since I have arrived at a different conclusion than you, I can't be sincere.
Arrogant much?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Your comment: "You see Timmy, that's how YOU believed (might still do) how there are those who 'deserve it.'" From that, I inferred that you don't believe they deserve their eternal punishment. No, I'm not sure, as you don't like to give clear answers to simple questions, but it seems that you do?
Calling them wicked helps, I suppose. People like me, who don't believe what you do and so will burn in hell forever. Wicked ol' me.
SMH.
That's your choice Timmy, not my desire for you. You believe that you are enlightened and I'm deceived and visa versa. You see I was raised by an atheist, so I have been through this rodeo, just with a smarter atheist, no offence.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Yes it is.
But one day you get to find out if your opinion was correct. If you end up maggot food you won't know it, because you cease to exist, but if you are wrong, it will be too late.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Does every Christian have the sound mind they are promised? The peace? The joy?
I do.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
I have never dissed God.
Oh, I'm sorry, you're agnostic?
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Originally Posted by Timmy
You are the master of yours, also. Dispute that, if you can.
No Jesus is the master.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
I am not happy to be thrown into flames.
I won't be. Nobody will. There is no reason to believe that your myth is true, any more than any other religious imaginings are true. None.
You can't be happy or sad about eternal (or temporary) flames, because you don't believe its fact, again, no problem you will someday test out your thesis.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Do you hope you are right and I'm wrong?
You being right encompasses far more then eschatology, but life and the meaning of life. Hey, how many non-religious cultures succeeded? 2,000 years of Christianity did more good then what they atheists accuse it of bad.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
My prediction is that when we die, we are just dead. We are no longer, just as we didn't exist before we were born (or conceived, if you prefer).
No it's your HOPE, not prediction.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
But your prediction is that I will suffer forever, and you will be happy forever. Is that your preference?
Do you really want it to end up as you think God designed it?
Choices it is all about choices, God doesn't desire the death of anyone, nor does any parent desire their children to go to prison, but it is up to the child to make the right choices as they grow. My "atheist" father use to tell me to just do the right thing (the right things were dictated by a predominantly Christian culture) but I had to make my own choices on what that meant to me. I paid the price, and could of ended up dead. Yet, by finding something way better than what I had, I was saved from my old lifestyle. So, Timmy what's your replacement for what any Christian is doing currently? What'cha got? Statism?
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Originally Posted by Timmy
You know a lot of things that you can't possibly know. Like my sincerity.
Wait, I stand corrected, Allow me to clarify, I believe we are all sincere, some sincere in a search for truth (not the flip chart) and some sincere to do as they very well please. Some are sincerely right, and some are sincerely wrong on many topics, being wrong doesn't make someone a bad guy, because they can get right, but being wrong sure doesn't help them out spiritually.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
But sure, since I have arrived at a different conclusion than you, I can't be sincere.
Yet, funny, but you can say the same thing? Timmy you are hanging out on a religious forum looking to have a hair pulling contest with anyone who dares to say that are sure of what they believe. The Bible tells them to make their calling an election sure. Hence they do. Hey Timmy when you first joined the forum way back, you believe in God? So, you changed, not anyone else who is a believer in the Bible. You mad? Sorry, but I'm not an ex-atheist hanging out on an atheist forum or ex-Christian forum looking to convert atheists to Christianity. That's not what your doing? OK, just an observation. Are you looking for some sort of guilt from someone who believes in a eternal torment? Sorry again, but you and I must make our own choices.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
Arrogant much?
Maybe you missed this Timmy, but you are proclaiming rightness right along with me. Whatever, but you guys must use the same play book.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Do you hope you are right and I'm wrong? My prediction is that when we die, we are just dead. We are no longer, just as we didn't exist before we were born (or conceived, if you prefer). But your prediction is that I will suffer forever, and you will be happy forever. Is that your preference?
Do you really want it to end up as you think God designed it?
We all have a choice to make. You are either for God or against Him. If what you believe turns out to be true..that we just die and no longer exist, then those of us who believe in the Bible have nothing to lose. BUT if the Bible is true and there is a life after death and consequences for the decisions we make now, then you have EVERYthing to lose.
Hybrid Mode
