Homosexuality question

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

There is nothing to be delivered from, or saved from, or healed of. He isn't trying anymore to be delivered or saved or healed. He's fine.

After speaking against homosexuality, Paul said...

Romans 1:32 KJV Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

After speaking against homosexuality, Paul said...

Romans 1:32 KJV Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I wanted to just drop a small comment. There is a difference between having pleasure in the sins of others... and believing in an amazing grace. I believe that homosexuality is an infirmity that can be forgiven.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wanted to just drop a small comment. There is a difference between having pleasure in the sins of others... and believing in an amazing grace. I believe that homosexuality is an infirmity that can be forgiven.

Amen. And overcome.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And overcome.

I think where so many disagree is when we are confronted with the situation of one who is filled with the Spirit, loves the Lord, and is sincerely torn up and sorrowful with godly sorrow over their homosexuality... yet they either have yet to overcome it... or couldn't overcome it. We struggle with understanding their relationship with God if they having overcome being "homosexual" but are not acting on those desires. Some even struggle with understanding their relationship with God if they haven't overcome being homosexual and have discretely chosen to be dedicated to a single loving companion.

Homosexuality as depicted in Scripture paints the picture of unbridled lust, degradation, lasciviousness and idolatry. Much like what we saw throughout the gay committee before HIV began spreading like wildfire. Some struggle when believers of the same gender display loving, kind, and dedicated companionship between one another. And as a result, to honestly answer the issue... theologians seek to find any example or room for these.

Many theologians will point out various ways the Bible can be interpreted. And as we all know... while the Bible has never changed... our interpretations of it and what we have deemed "orthodox" have historically changed over the ages. From Trinity to Oneness... from Papal authority to congregationalism... from seven sacraments to two sacraments... from permissive teaching on slavery to abolitionist doctrine. With a massive number of people facing this challenge... theologians are once more looking into the Scriptures and asking... is there any room for acceptance, love, and salvation for those whom we've deemed un-acceptable, un-lovable and un-savable?

It truly is an interesting social debate. And the stake are high as it relates to personal liberties, private associations, the freedom of religion and the future of the American church.

In the end... I believe that the love of God will reveal His will, grace, and mercy. Because love never fails.

[Pressing-On]

I don't think it is very hard to figure out sin. A motivated person (a fully determined person) is going to find deliverance. That means for the duration, however long that is for the person, they are going to see it through until deliverance comes. The Bible fully supports that view. We can find deliverance and live as overcomers.

It is not hard to figure out, for any type of sin committed, sometimes the struggle to continue and the struggle to give up can be enormous at times. It's almost like dieting - some fluctuate, and some make it a lifestyle and never gain the weight back.

We see people move on and away from sin knowing it could always be a temptation in their life. They prepare themselves to be keenly aware of the avenue or door. For instance, a person who has committed and repented of adultery would be keenly aware of how to not allow that sin to enter into their life again. They don't set themselves up for it. Don't talk to the opposite sex privately, don't share personal conversations with the opposite sex, etc.

The born gay thing is a fallacy. Logically, without even using the Bible as a tool, we can use science:

Let's start with genetic succession - one gay man/woman + one gay man/woman = no children. If gays cannot have children, how can they pass their genes on to children? There is no mechanism for gays to do that - scientifically.

A friend of mine witnessed to someone at work who was gay. The person said their psychologist told them they were born that way. The person said they had never heard they could obtain deliverance. They wanted out for years, but thought it was a done deal, according to the secular world.

The fact remains - there are people who have not been able to overcome sexual sins, so we want to say they are born that way in order to make sense of it. The sense of it is that there are just people who are not going to be overcomers - period.

And for those that feel they haven't been able to overcome - it's not over until the dirt is thrown down on your coffin. Or, as the old adage says, "it's not over until the fat lady sings."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't think it is very hard to figure out sin. A motivated person (a fully determined person) is going to find deliverance. That means for the duration, however long that is for the person, they are going to see it through until deliverance comes. The Bible fully supports that view. We can find deliverance and live as overcomers.

It is not hard to figure out, for any type of sin committed, sometimes the struggle to continue and the struggle to give up can be enormous at times. It's almost like dieting - some fluctuate, and some make it a lifestyle and never gain the weight back.

We see people move on and away from sin knowing it could always be a temptation in their life. They prepare themselves to be keenly aware of the avenue or door. For instance, a person who has committed and repented of adultery would be keenly aware of how to not allow that sin to enter into their life again. They don't set themselves up for it. Don't talk to the opposite sex privately, don't share personal conversations with the opposite sex, etc.

The born gay thing is a fallacy. Logically, without even using the Bible as a tool, we can use science:

Let's start with genetic succession - one gay man/woman + one gay man/woman = no children. If gays cannot have children, how can they pass their genes on to children? There is no mechanism for gays to do that - scientifically.

A friend of mine witnessed to someone at work who was gay. The person said their psychologist told them they were born that way. The person said they had never heard they could obtain deliverance. They wanted out for years, but thought it was a done deal, according to the secular world.

The fact remains - there are people who have not been able to overcome sexual sins, so we want to say they are born that way in order to make sense of it. The sense of it is that there are just people who are not going to be overcomers - period.

And for those that feel they haven't been able to overcome - it's not over until the dirt is thrown down on your coffin. Or, as the old adage says, "it's not over until the fat lady sings."

Are you saying that you have made the choice to never sin again? That you have successfully overcome every bastion of sinful sexual desire and/or expression?

My, I know that I have a body. It has hormones a genetic make up yadda, yadda, yadda. I know that my hormone levels wax and wane and sometimes that "chemistry" can become a blazing fire of desire and irritability. I don't deny that my flesh as a life of it's own. And I don't deny that the battle will continue until this flesh is DEAD. I will have good days, bad days, days of victory, and days of defeat wherein I've succumbed to those desires. I do pray that my victories outnumber my defeats. And I've noticed that with age... this flesh becomes more mellow as it relates to certain desires. As a young man... I was a tiger, ready to go in an instant. Grrrr. But today... I have to think about it a little and more and more I'm discovering that I have to get the crank started. lol

It amazes me how older saints forget the power of hormones and biology.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you saying that you have made the choice to never sin again? That you have successfully overcome every bastion of sinful sexual desire and/or expression?

My, I know that I have a body. It has hormones a genetic make up yadda, yadda, yadda. I know that my hormone levels wax and wane and sometimes that "chemistry" can become a blazing fire of desire and irritability. I don't deny that my flesh as a life of it's own. And I don't deny that the battle will continue until this flesh is DEAD. I will have good days, bad days, days of victory, and days of defeat wherein I've succumbed to those desires. I do pray that my victories outnumber my defeats. And I've noticed that with age... this flesh becomes more mellow as it relates to certain desires. As a young man... I was a tiger, ready to go in an instant. Grrrr. But today... I have to think about it a little and more and more I'm discovering that I have to get the crank started. lol

It amazes me how older saints forget the power of hormones and biology.

Of course I am not saying that I have successfully overcome every bastion of sin in my life. Of course I would make a choice to never sin again? That isn't your choice? I'm not going to worry about what sin will try to tempt me because of any weakness in my flesh. I'm going to first and foremost determine to be an overcomer.

Aside from even a hormonal issue, I believe there are particular people you meet in life that you have an instant chemistry with. We have to be like Joseph and let them have your cloak and run like the dickens. If Joseph could do it, why can we be expected to do the same?

Honestly, I have been tempted one time in my Christian life. I was surprised by it. It came out of nowhere and at the right time when I very low and very unhappy. If God had not come to me every day, I may not have been an overcomer. But, He showed me His love and I wanted that more.

So, from that experience, I found out that if in your heart, you don't really want that sin, even though tempted by it, you will find a way of escape. At least, that was my experience.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think where so many disagree is when we are confronted with the situation of one who is filled with the Spirit, loves the Lord, and is sincerely torn up and sorrowful with godly sorrow over their homosexuality... yet they either have yet to overcome it... or couldn't overcome it.

Overcoming anything is a KINGDOM matter. This involves great spiritual maturity and spiritual maturity is simply rare in our day and age. Most only get to the basics and settle into HANG-ON mode for the rest of their Christian lives. To overcome sin involves understanding of Romans 6. So it is not uncommon for believers to truly and sincerely love the Lord but not overcome something like this.

This maturity cannot come in a moment by someone laying hands on a person. It requires learning and intense renewing of the mind from the epistles.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Overcoming anything is a KINGDOM matter. This involves great spiritual maturity and spiritual maturity is simply rare in our day and age. Most only get to the basics and settle into HANG-ON mode for the rest of their Christian lives. To overcome sin involves understanding of Romans 6. So it is not uncommon for believers to truly and sincerely love the Lord but not overcome something like this.

This maturity cannot come in a moment by someone laying hands on a person. It requires learning and intense renewing of the mind from the epistles.

Should we expect to be absolutely sinless to be saved?

It's my belief that we are "sinless" and "complete" in Christ alone. All of our imperfections are hidden in Him as long as we confess our condition and depend on His grace and mercy. Of course, a Christian shouldn't be living a sinful lifestyle. One preacher once said, "While Christians aren't 'sinless', Christians should 'sin less'."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Should we expect to be absolutely sinless to be saved?

Is a person physically a person if they are not mature? Of course. Lacking spiritual maturity has nothing to do with not being saved.

It's my belief that we are "sinless" and "complete" in Christ alone.

That is meant to come out in our behaviour, hence Paul spoke of sin not having dominion over us in practical manners in rom 6:12-13.

Our resurrections with Christ are meant to cause us to live overcoming lives. Our positions are those of perfection in Him. But that is still meant to work out into behaviour.

All of our imperfections are hidden in Him as long as we confess our condition and depend on His grace and mercy. Of course, a Christian shouldn't be living a sinful lifestyle. One preacher once said, "While Christians aren't 'sinless', Christians should 'sin less'."

[/quote]

I wrote a book on it called SIN LESS. It's about overcoming all through spiritual maturity in known why we arose with Him.