Homosexuality question

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

After speaking against homosexuality, Paul said...

Romans 1:32 KJV Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I wanted to just drop a small comment. There is a difference between having pleasure in the sins of others... and believing in an amazing grace. I believe that homosexuality is an infirmity that can be forgiven.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wanted to just drop a small comment. There is a difference between having pleasure in the sins of others... and believing in an amazing grace. I believe that homosexuality is an infirmity that can be forgiven.

Amen. And overcome.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And overcome.

I think where so many disagree is when we are confronted with the situation of one who is filled with the Spirit, loves the Lord, and is sincerely torn up and sorrowful with godly sorrow over their homosexuality... yet they either have yet to overcome it... or couldn't overcome it. We struggle with understanding their relationship with God if they having overcome being "homosexual" but are not acting on those desires. Some even struggle with understanding their relationship with God if they haven't overcome being homosexual and have discretely chosen to be dedicated to a single loving companion.

Homosexuality as depicted in Scripture paints the picture of unbridled lust, degradation, lasciviousness and idolatry. Much like what we saw throughout the gay committee before HIV began spreading like wildfire. Some struggle when believers of the same gender display loving, kind, and dedicated companionship between one another. And as a result, to honestly answer the issue... theologians seek to find any example or room for these.

Many theologians will point out various ways the Bible can be interpreted. And as we all know... while the Bible has never changed... our interpretations of it and what we have deemed "orthodox" have historically changed over the ages. From Trinity to Oneness... from Papal authority to congregationalism... from seven sacraments to two sacraments... from permissive teaching on slavery to abolitionist doctrine. With a massive number of people facing this challenge... theologians are once more looking into the Scriptures and asking... is there any room for acceptance, love, and salvation for those whom we've deemed un-acceptable, un-lovable and un-savable?

It truly is an interesting social debate. And the stake are high as it relates to personal liberties, private associations, the freedom of religion and the future of the American church.

In the end... I believe that the love of God will reveal His will, grace, and mercy. Because love never fails.

[Pressing-On]

I don't think it is very hard to figure out sin. A motivated person (a fully determined person) is going to find deliverance. That means for the duration, however long that is for the person, they are going to see it through until deliverance comes. The Bible fully supports that view. We can find deliverance and live as overcomers.

It is not hard to figure out, for any type of sin committed, sometimes the struggle to continue and the struggle to give up can be enormous at times. It's almost like dieting - some fluctuate, and some make it a lifestyle and never gain the weight back.

We see people move on and away from sin knowing it could always be a temptation in their life. They prepare themselves to be keenly aware of the avenue or door. For instance, a person who has committed and repented of adultery would be keenly aware of how to not allow that sin to enter into their life again. They don't set themselves up for it. Don't talk to the opposite sex privately, don't share personal conversations with the opposite sex, etc.

The born gay thing is a fallacy. Logically, without even using the Bible as a tool, we can use science:

Let's start with genetic succession - one gay man/woman + one gay man/woman = no children. If gays cannot have children, how can they pass their genes on to children? There is no mechanism for gays to do that - scientifically.

A friend of mine witnessed to someone at work who was gay. The person said their psychologist told them they were born that way. The person said they had never heard they could obtain deliverance. They wanted out for years, but thought it was a done deal, according to the secular world.

The fact remains - there are people who have not been able to overcome sexual sins, so we want to say they are born that way in order to make sense of it. The sense of it is that there are just people who are not going to be overcomers - period.

And for those that feel they haven't been able to overcome - it's not over until the dirt is thrown down on your coffin. Or, as the old adage says, "it's not over until the fat lady sings."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't think it is very hard to figure out sin. A motivated person (a fully determined person) is going to find deliverance. That means for the duration, however long that is for the person, they are going to see it through until deliverance comes. The Bible fully supports that view. We can find deliverance and live as overcomers.

It is not hard to figure out, for any type of sin committed, sometimes the struggle to continue and the struggle to give up can be enormous at times. It's almost like dieting - some fluctuate, and some make it a lifestyle and never gain the weight back.

We see people move on and away from sin knowing it could always be a temptation in their life. They prepare themselves to be keenly aware of the avenue or door. For instance, a person who has committed and repented of adultery would be keenly aware of how to not allow that sin to enter into their life again. They don't set themselves up for it. Don't talk to the opposite sex privately, don't share personal conversations with the opposite sex, etc.

The born gay thing is a fallacy. Logically, without even using the Bible as a tool, we can use science:

Let's start with genetic succession - one gay man/woman + one gay man/woman = no children. If gays cannot have children, how can they pass their genes on to children? There is no mechanism for gays to do that - scientifically.

A friend of mine witnessed to someone at work who was gay. The person said their psychologist told them they were born that way. The person said they had never heard they could obtain deliverance. They wanted out for years, but thought it was a done deal, according to the secular world.

The fact remains - there are people who have not been able to overcome sexual sins, so we want to say they are born that way in order to make sense of it. The sense of it is that there are just people who are not going to be overcomers - period.

And for those that feel they haven't been able to overcome - it's not over until the dirt is thrown down on your coffin. Or, as the old adage says, "it's not over until the fat lady sings."

Are you saying that you have made the choice to never sin again? That you have successfully overcome every bastion of sinful sexual desire and/or expression?

My, I know that I have a body. It has hormones a genetic make up yadda, yadda, yadda. I know that my hormone levels wax and wane and sometimes that "chemistry" can become a blazing fire of desire and irritability. I don't deny that my flesh as a life of it's own. And I don't deny that the battle will continue until this flesh is DEAD. I will have good days, bad days, days of victory, and days of defeat wherein I've succumbed to those desires. I do pray that my victories outnumber my defeats. And I've noticed that with age... this flesh becomes more mellow as it relates to certain desires. As a young man... I was a tiger, ready to go in an instant. Grrrr. But today... I have to think about it a little and more and more I'm discovering that I have to get the crank started. lol

It amazes me how older saints forget the power of hormones and biology.

[Aquila]

I had posted this in another thread, I thought I'd share it here.

Genetic anomaly. An "infirmity" of the flesh to be recognized, overcome, and prayerfully healed.

Sin has affected us down to the genetic level. Don't believe me? We get sick, get old, and die as a result of sin. Many are born from healthy parents with various genetic anomalies. Think of it this way... our entire biology is fallen.

Everyone is born a sinner. Everyone's flesh is predisposed to some form of sinful proclivity as the result of hormones and genetics.

No one is born... "perfect". We need to ditch the myth that human beings are born perfect and flawless. We're born corrupted. We are born with genetic time bombs in our nature that can trigger many different developmental, hormonal, and behavioral proclivities. Genetic makeup can even predispose one to specific diseases and conditions. This is why the SPIRIT must overcome the FLESH.

Now, we have to have the wisdom to understand that just because someone is born with a given condition, it doesn't mean that it's God's will. Some are born with abnormalities to the cerebral cortex of the brain leaving them predisposed to violent and impulsive behaviors. Did God create them to be violent and impulsive people? Nope. Sin, through our fallen state, did that to them. Now, does that mean that they are doomed? Nope. God has provided grace and mercy for us in our fallen humanity. And God has also provided the possibility of healing wherever it might apply.

We constantly hear that being gay is a "choice". However, many have felt a predisposition towards the same gender, with the hormonal chemistry to follow, as early as 5 years old... before they had any real understanding of sex and/or its physical pleasures. That's not really a "choice". Now, we can argue that choosing to act on those attractions is a "choice"... but the attractions themselves appear to be innate in many, if not most. I never made a "choice" to be straight. It was innate to my development. Now, I can choose to act on those desires or choose not to. But being "straight" in and of itself wasn't a choice for me.

While sex isn't a "need" to sustain life. It is classified as a "need" for general happiness and well being. And the vast majority of people will seek to satisfy their sexual needs in some way shape or form that suits their given interests and desires. Hormones often drive these needs. As people age and their hormone levels decrees and stabilize and decrease. Also, their biological response to pheromones (regardless of what gender associated with said pheromones) decreases. Also, in blind studies, those who profess being homosexual responded neurologically to same gender pheromones whereas those professing to be heterosexual responded neurologically to pheromones from the opposite gender. Our sexual drive and attractions are more linked to our biology than many realize. Scientists have even genetically "tweaked" mice to respond to same gender pheromones over those of the opposite gender. Yes, they can make a mouse "gay" by tampering with it's genetics. The human genome is far more complicated and so studies in this area as it relates to human beings is still in progress. However, it is also controversial among some geneticists. I also remember reading about a study involving twins separated at birth. Twins seem to have something like over a 75% chance of having the same or similar sexual proclivities, regardless of upbringing or environment.

So... my point is... yes... I do believe there is a possible "genetic link" and that many are "born" with this proclivity. However, being born with an anomaly as the result of one's fallen nature doesn't automatically mean said anomaly has God's approval.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you saying that you have made the choice to never sin again? That you have successfully overcome every bastion of sinful sexual desire and/or expression?

My, I know that I have a body. It has hormones a genetic make up yadda, yadda, yadda. I know that my hormone levels wax and wane and sometimes that "chemistry" can become a blazing fire of desire and irritability. I don't deny that my flesh as a life of it's own. And I don't deny that the battle will continue until this flesh is DEAD. I will have good days, bad days, days of victory, and days of defeat wherein I've succumbed to those desires. I do pray that my victories outnumber my defeats. And I've noticed that with age... this flesh becomes more mellow as it relates to certain desires. As a young man... I was a tiger, ready to go in an instant. Grrrr. But today... I have to think about it a little and more and more I'm discovering that I have to get the crank started. lol

It amazes me how older saints forget the power of hormones and biology.

Of course I am not saying that I have successfully overcome every bastion of sin in my life. Of course I would make a choice to never sin again? That isn't your choice? I'm not going to worry about what sin will try to tempt me because of any weakness in my flesh. I'm going to first and foremost determine to be an overcomer.

Aside from even a hormonal issue, I believe there are particular people you meet in life that you have an instant chemistry with. We have to be like Joseph and let them have your cloak and run like the dickens. If Joseph could do it, why can we be expected to do the same?

Honestly, I have been tempted one time in my Christian life. I was surprised by it. It came out of nowhere and at the right time when I very low and very unhappy. If God had not come to me every day, I may not have been an overcomer. But, He showed me His love and I wanted that more.

So, from that experience, I found out that if in your heart, you don't really want that sin, even though tempted by it, you will find a way of escape. At least, that was my experience.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I had posted this in another thread, I thought I'd share it here.

Genetic anomaly. An "infirmity" of the flesh to be recognized, overcome, and prayerfully healed.

Sin has affected us down to the genetic level. Don't believe me? We get sick, get old, and die as a result of sin. Many are born from healthy parents with various genetic anomalies. Think of it this way... our entire biology is fallen.

Everyone is born a sinner. Everyone's flesh is predisposed to some form of sinful proclivity as the result of hormones and genetics.

No one is born... "perfect". We need to ditch the myth that human beings are born perfect and flawless. We're born corrupted. We are born with genetic time bombs in our nature that can trigger many different developmental, hormonal, and behavioral proclivities. Genetic makeup can even predispose one to specific diseases and conditions. This is why the SPIRIT must overcome the FLESH.

Now, we have to have the wisdom to understand that just because someone is born with a given condition, it doesn't mean that it's God's will. Some are born with abnormalities to the cerebral cortex of the brain leaving them predisposed to violent and impulsive behaviors. Did God create them to be violent and impulsive people? Nope. Sin, through our fallen state, did that to them. Now, does that mean that they are doomed? Nope. God has provided grace and mercy for us in our fallen humanity. And God has also provided the possibility of healing wherever it might apply.

We constantly hear that being gay is a "choice". However, many have felt a predisposition towards the same gender, with the hormonal chemistry to follow, as early as 5 years old... before they had any real understanding of sex and/or its physical pleasures. That's not really a "choice". Now, we can argue that choosing to act on those attractions is a "choice"... but the attractions themselves appear to be innate in many, if not most. I never made a "choice" to be straight. It was innate to my development. Now, I can choose to act on those desires or choose not to. But being "straight" in and of itself wasn't a choice for me.

While sex isn't a "need" to sustain life. It is classified as a "need" for general happiness and well being. And the vast majority of people will seek to satisfy their sexual needs in some way shape or form that suits their given interests and desires. Hormones often drive these needs. As people age and their hormone levels decrees and stabilize and decrease. Also, their biological response to pheromones (regardless of what gender associated with said pheromones) decreases. Also, in blind studies, those who profess being homosexual responded neurologically to same gender pheromones whereas those professing to be heterosexual responded neurologically to pheromones from the opposite gender. Our sexual drive and attractions are more linked to our biology than many realize. Scientists have even genetically "tweaked" mice to respond to same gender pheromones over those of the opposite gender. Yes, they can make a mouse "gay" by tampering with it's genetics. The human genome is far more complicated and so studies in this area as it relates to human beings is still in progress. However, it is also controversial among some geneticists. I also remember reading about a study involving twins separated at birth. Twins seem to have something like over a 75% chance of having the same or similar sexual proclivities, regardless of upbringing or environment.

So... my point is... yes... I do believe there is a possible "genetic link" and that many are "born" with this proclivity. However, being born with an anomaly as the result of one's fallen nature doesn't automatically mean said anomaly has God's approval.

My response from the other thread.

I believe that we can be born with abmoralities and maladies. However, I don't believe we can be born with a sexual preference that contradicts God's Word. PMS and menopause are a natural hormonal response in a woman's body. That isn't abnormal. It isn't any more abnormal than puberty and what that entails.

We have much more sickness today do to our food supply and the vaccines we put in our bodies. For instance, today, people are getting shingles - a result of the chickenpox vaccines years ago. That can mess up your body chemistry for sure. Actually, I read a link, some time back, a foreign scientist (can't recall his name) saying vaccines can change the hormonal chemistry causing some to become gay. You can check out the effects of soybean on a boy's body as well.

I'm sure you have seen the video clip with Bill Gates boldly speaking about how we can use vaccines to cut down on world population. A rich, rich man who wants to own and manage the world.

You are saying that God has purposely formed and created a person into something He condemns. I don't see that as plausible nor acceptable. Having a propensity to sin because of our sinful nature is very plausible. With my fallen nature I "can become" anything I give myself over to being. As I stated, I "can become" a thief, but I wasn't born a thief.

I would look more toward manmade causes for this phenomena in the body before I would look at God as the cause. I also know that some won't want that discussion as we love our doctors and our medicine. It's just that we have more hospitals and clinics than we do churches. Something has gone amiss. Someone is making the big bucks and using us as the Guinea pigs.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Of course I am not saying that I have successfully overcome every bastion of sin in my life.

Do you believe that the very same patience, grace, and mercy extended to you will be extended to the believer who is homosexual?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you believe that the very same patience, grace, and mercy extended to you will be extended to the believer who is homosexual?

Of course, if you are meaning a "believer" as someone recognizing their weakness without acting upon it. Just because you believe in God doesn't make you saved. Obedience makes and keeps us saved. That is a true believer.

If I have a weakness for fornication, but don't act upon it. The weakness isn't my sin. Acting upon would be. It's the same thing for a homosexual or any other sin we have a weakness for.

You've heard that a bird can fly over your head, but you don't have to allow it to build a nest. Our thoughts are not sinful, dwelling on them and then acting upon them is the sin.