Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

votivesoul · #1 10-25-2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Why not bro...Jesus had a God.....Was Jesus ONENESS?....
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(this is AFTER the resurrection)

Psalm 22
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Are they the same exact being?

Everyone but MtD seems to be missing the point I'm making. I have not and so far, do not plan to, dive into the theological aspect of this discussion.

I am merely making the point that words have meaning, and we can't just use them however we want. Since I am not a Trinitarian, nor ever have been, nor ever will be, I will never use the word Trinitarian to describe myself or my theological understanding of the Godhead.

Why? Because I do not affirm the Trinitarian view of God.

So, if I do not affirm the Oneness view of the Godhead, then likewise I should not call myself Oneness.

Think about the average man on the street:

You say, "Hi, I'm a Oneness believer in Jesus Christ"

They say, "Oh, you believe Jesus is the Father?"

You say, "Nope, I don't believe Jesus is the Father."

They say, "Then you aren't Oneness."

See what I mean?

Michael The Disciple · #2 10-25-2014, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Everyone but MtD seems to be missing the point I'm making. I have not and so far, do not plan to, dive into the theological aspect of this discussion.

I am merely making the point that words have meaning, and we can't just use them however we want. Since I am not a Trinitarian, nor ever have been, nor ever will be, I will never use the word Trinitarian to describe myself or my theological understanding of the Godhead.

Why? Because I do not affirm the Trinitarian view of God.

So, if I do not affirm the Oneness view of the Godhead, then likewise I should not call myself Oneness.

Think about the average man on the street:

You say, "Hi, I'm a Oneness believer in Jesus Christ"

They say, "Oh, you believe Jesus is the Father?"

You say, "Nope, I don't believe Jesus is the Father."

They say, "Then you aren't Oneness."

See what I mean?

Yes I see Bro. Very good point. I'm always shocked when this topic comes up. Its almost like the Oneness doctrine is being lost all over again.

It was hard for me in the beginning to see how that the early Church could have all but lost the truth it was delivered within 200 years more or less.

Now it was fully recovered less than 100 years ago. Millions have come to its light. But now it seems to be fading possibly more quickly than in the beginning!

I really hold the Ministers largely responsible. Instead of having a strategy for teaching truth and taking it serious we have entertainment type preaching. People like "hot" preaching! Jehovah Witnesses train their converts and get them witnessing immediately. I have hardly met any "Apostolics" that I would trust to go out and represent the true gospel.

I knew one group in the Jesus movement where in 6 months they were expected to memorize 500 verses. And yet Apostolics walk around like the Emperor with his new clothes.

The worse part is when one of them gets their eyes open to some tradition of men they are being fed they immediately turn back FROM TRUTH that they have been taught (like Oneness) and go shopping among Trins and Arians because they no longer trust their leaders.

I thank God through Jesus Christ that we have the book of Revelation to let us know there will be end time overcomers!

Praxeas · #3 10-26-2014, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes I see Bro. Very good point. I'm always shocked when this topic comes up. Its almost like the Oneness doctrine is being lost all over again.

!

Or it's being better explained/defended in a more coherent manner

Michael The Disciple · #4 10-26-2014, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Or it's being better explained/defended in a more coherent manner

From whats being said here I totally disagree. It was pretty coherent when I came into it in 1980. All I here from many now is God is spirit. The spirit of God is in the man Jesus.

Tho that is true its just a snippet and would not even put a dent in Trinitarian armor.

Abiding Now · #5 10-26-2014, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

From whats being said here I totally disagree. It was pretty coherent when I came into it in 1980. All I here from many now is God is spirit. The spirit of God is in the man Jesus.

Tho that is true its just a snippet and would not even put a dent in Trinitarian armor.

"Tho that is true its just a snippet and would not even put a dent in trinitarian armor".

The Godhead really is just that simple. Trinitarians and some Apostolics might want to make it complex and hard to understand, but Paul said it was "clearly understood".

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Praxeas · #6 10-27-2014, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

From whats being said here I totally disagree. It was pretty coherent when I came into it in 1980. All I here from many now is God is spirit. The spirit of God is in the man Jesus.

Tho that is true its just a snippet and would not even put a dent in Trinitarian armor.

It may have been coherent to you. That does not mean there isn't a better way to explain

What you are hearing us called Unitarianism not Oneness

Sean · #7 10-25-2014, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Everyone but MtD seems to be missing the point I'm making. I have not and so far, do not plan to, dive into the theological aspect of this discussion.

I am merely making the point that words have meaning, and we can't just use them however we want. Since I am not a Trinitarian, nor ever have been, nor ever will be, I will never use the word Trinitarian to describe myself or my theological understanding of the Godhead.

Why? Because I do not affirm the Trinitarian view of God.

So, if I do not affirm the Oneness view of the Godhead, then likewise I should not call myself Oneness.

Think about the average man on the street:

You say, "Hi, I'm a Oneness believer in Jesus Christ"

They say, "Oh, you believe Jesus is the Father?"

You say, "Nope, I don't believe Jesus is the Father."

They say, "Then you aren't Oneness."

See what I mean?

Bro. I see your point, but I produced those passages to show you the way the Bible looks to a TRINITARIAN...We must have a better explanation than just...JESUS IS THE FATHER and THE FATHER IS JESUS.

These folks need a clear explanation.
I believe Jesus is the Father, because he was indwelled by the Father and the Words/Works were done through him by the indwelling Father.

Jesus was however, a real live human being that admittedly had a GOD.

Many of our oneness explanations seem like a lot of technical jargon to them in my opinion.

Many of us struggle with the thought of Jesus being a human being and having a God(Father).

Esaias · #8 10-26-2014, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Many of us struggle with the thought of Jesus being a human being and having a God(Father).

I don't. God became a man. The man would of course be a worshipper of God. When God became a man he took on a way of existence, that of a genuine human being (while not ceasing to be YHVH of course).

Jesus is not the Father "because the Father dwells in him". Rather he is the Father because he is the human being that the Father became in order to redeem us. If indwelling makes him God then all Christians are God IN THE SAME WAY right?

Sean · #9 10-26-2014, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

I don't. God became a man. The man would of course be a worshipper of God. When God became a man he took on a way of existence, that of a genuine human being (while not ceasing to be YHVH of course).

Brother, I dont see the concept of "God became a man"in the Bible. Thats not in the Bible. If it is, please show me a passage accordingly. I know we were taught that as new convert but I have never seem the passage produced.

Jesus is not the Father "because the Father dwells in him". Rather he is the Father because he is the human being that the Father became in order to redeem us. If indwelling makes him God then all Christians are God IN THE SAME WAY right?

No, all Christians dont have the fULLNESS of God. Jesus was given the Spirit WITHOUT measure.

JESUS IS ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

Esaias · #10 10-26-2014, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

No, all Christians dont have the fULLNESS of God. Jesus was given the Spirit WITHOUT measure.

God became a man. The Word was God... and the Word became flesh. There ya go.

We have the fullness of God in us because we have Christ in us and we are complete in Him.

Jesus is God manifest in flesh. He is the "express image" (lit. engraving) of God's person. He took on himself the nature - not of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He Himself said repeatedly that He Himself came from heaven.

Jesus is God in human form. That is, God existing as a man.