Circumcision of the heart

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are creating a new 3 step teaching. We disagree with Trinitarians who claim we are first born of the Spirit and then later baptized in the Spirit. We point out that Acts simply says folks had not yet received the Spirit, not an act of the Spirit. You are saying that the Spirit cleanses at baptism but does not stay?

No I am not saying that at all. How in the world can you take me saying the Spirit does the work of washing sins when we're baptized as saying it enters our lives and exits again? The Spirit does everything in our lives that is supernatural. Asking me if I think the Spirit enters and leaves if I believe the Spirit remits sins at baptism is like asking a person if the Spirit enters and exits when someone is healed.

I am not saying anything different about salvation.

And then has to be asked to return at Spirit baptism? How does one remain quickened by the Spirit if he did not stay after they were cleansed by him at baptism?

He does not indwell us when he washes sins away in baptism. Why on earth do you think washing sins by the Spirit means otherwise?

He is the quickening agent. Quickening is not just something he does, it is something he is.

One is born of the water (really the Spirit) and then born of the Spirit?

I cannot make sense out of your questions, because you mistook what I said and thought I meant the Spirit indwells temporarily when baptized and exits again. I never implied anything about that whatsoever.

How do YOU think the Spirit washes sins at baptism? Do you not believe before one is filled with the Spirit that one's sins can be remitted, or something?

Do you think every act of the Spirit upon a life means he indwells and then exits? Why do we have to consider Him indwelling in order for Him to do anything in our lives?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I am not saying that at all. How in the world can you take me saying the Spirit does the work of washing sins when we're baptized as saying it enters our lives and exits again? The Spirit does everything in our lives that is supernatural. Asking me if I think the Spirit enters and leaves if I believe the Spirit remits sins at baptism is like asking a person if the Spirit enters and exits when someone is healed.

I am not saying anything different about salvation.


He does not indwell us when he washes sins away in baptism. Why on earth do you think washing sins by the Spirit means otherwise?


I cannot make sense out of your questions, because you mistook what I said and thought I meant the Spirit indwells temporarily when baptized and exits again. I never implied anything about that whatsoever.

How do YOU think the Spirit washes sins at baptism? Do you not believe before one is filled with the Spirit that one's sins can be remitted, or something?

Do you think every act of the Spirit upon a life means he indwells and then exits? Why do we have to consider Him indwelling in order for Him to do anything in our lives?

I feel where many apostolics err is that they think these literal, tangible things called sins are washed away at baptism. It simply is not so. Nor is any blood applied. We are forgiven of our sins by God for Christ's sake in baptism because we have trusted in the price he paid for our sins and have submitted to his lordship. That's it. Nothing literal in a sense of cleansing. Just forgiveness. Then, with us having submitted to the gospel, God is free to literally deal with our sin nature and give a new nature by Spirit baptism.
My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I feel where many apostolics err is that they think these literal, tangible things called sins are washed away at baptism. It simply is not so. Nor is any blood applied. We are forgiven of our sins by God for Christ's sake in baptism because we have trusted in the price he paid for our sins and have submitted to his lordship. That's it. Nothing literal in a sense of cleansing. Just forgiveness. Then, with us having submitted to the gospel, God is free to literally deal with our sin nature and give a new nature by Spirit baptism.

I agree with that.

Just using biblical terms.

My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

Anything God does is by His Spirit, and this is why I asked you if you think healing means His Spirit enters and stays as you seem to imply with washing of sins. Healing is done by His Spirit. Anything from God, O, is done by His Spirit. Dealings with man are always said to be the work of the Holy Ghost. So, again, why do you think dealing with sins implies Spirit indwelling?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with that.

Just using biblical terms.



Anything God does is by His Spirit, and this is why I asked you if you think healing means His Spirit enters and stays as you seem to imply with washing of sins. Healing is done by His Spirit. Anything from God, O, is done by His Spirit. Dealings with man are always said to be the work of the Holy Ghost. So, again, why do you think dealing with sins implies Spirit indwelling?

God forgiving someone would simply be an act of his will, not his Spirit. As I see it, that is all that God does for us at baptism, he forgives us for Christ's sake (which is not a small thing). Where God acts by his Spirit on behalf of the sinner is at the birth of the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

God forgiving someone would simply be an act of his will, not his Spirit.

Here is where communication broke down with us. We essentially agree. But we are using different terms. I call ANYTHING God does being caused by His Spirit, because GOD IS A SPIRIT. When He forgives HIS SPIRIT forgives.

As I see it, that is all that God does for us at baptism, he forgives us for Christ's sake (which is not a small thing). Where God acts by his Spirit on behalf of the sinner is at the birth of the Spirit.

I disagree in use of terms with you. Anything done by God is His Spirit doing it. That's why His anointing on Old Testament prophets was said to be by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe 1:21 KJV For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

Isn't that the ideal?