born of water

Esaias · #1 12-04-2014, 09:52 PM

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

mizpeh · #2 12-05-2014, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

Pressing-On · #3 12-05-2014, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

Sean · #4 12-08-2014, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

Amen to the above statement!

Look at Romans 6....

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(those that are NOT baptized are NOT baptized into His death))

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(How can we walk in newness of life if we are not "buried with him BY baptism" yet?)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(buried by baptism is also being "planted". If we are not baptized, we are not planted, nor ready to be resurrected either)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(baptism is also called a "crucifixion" here)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(verse 4 says we are "buried with Him by baptism INTO death". If we are not baptized, we are not dead to sin yet and subsequently not free from sin)

This ENTIRE passage cannot apply to those that have not been baptized yet, therefore water baptism is absolutely essential and AUTOMATICALLY part of the spiritual regeneration process.

If a person is NOT baptized, they are NOT saved!

Truthseeker · #5 12-14-2014, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Amen to the above statement!

Look at Romans 6....

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(those that are NOT baptized are NOT baptized into His death))

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(How can we walk in newness of life if we are not "buried with him BY baptism" yet?)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(buried by baptism is also being "planted". If we are not baptized, we are not planted, nor ready to be resurrected either)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(baptism is also called a "crucifixion" here)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(verse 4 says we are "buried with Him by baptism INTO death". If we are not baptized, we are not dead to sin yet and subsequently not free from sin)

This ENTIRE passage cannot apply to those that have not been baptized yet, therefore water baptism is absolutely essential and AUTOMATICALLY part of the spiritual regeneration process.

If a person is NOT baptized, they are NOT saved!

Seems acts 10 destroys this position. They got filled with the Spirit (resurrection) without being water baptized (burial, baptized into his death)

Sean · #6 12-14-2014, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Seems acts 10 destroys this position. They got filled with the Spirit (resurrection) without being water baptized (burial, baptized into his death)

Acts 10 "destroys" Romans 6???

When they were not baptized, they were still dead in their trespasses and sins, that is why they were baptized that very day.

If you agree that baptism is a burial,Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.....

then you believe that the souls in the N.T. that received the Spirit, prior to baptism were BURIED ALIVE!!!

Not cool bro...

Truthseeker · #7 12-14-2014, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Acts 10 "destroys" Romans 6???

When they were not baptized, they were still dead in their trespasses and sins, that is why they were baptized that very day.

If you agree that baptism is a burial,Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.....

then you believe that the souls in the N.T. that received the Spirit, prior to baptism were BURIED ALIVE!!!

Not cool bro...

How were they resurrected before dying?

Hesetmefree238 · #8 12-14-2014, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Acts 10 "destroys" Romans 6???

When they were not baptized, they were still dead in their trespasses and sins, that is why they were baptized that very day.

If you agree that baptism is a burial,Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.....

then you believe that the souls in the N.T. that received the Spirit, prior to baptism were BURIED ALIVE!!!

Not cool bro...

The Spirit is Life. Paul said, the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. The Spirit is the life of Christ. I believe it's in error to say they were still dead in their sins after they had been filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe they had to be baptized, but I don't agree with your interpretation of saying they were still spiritually dead once they had received the Holy Spirit.

Sean · #9 12-15-2014, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

The Spirit is Life. Paul said, the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. The Spirit is the life of Christ. I believe it's in error to say they were still dead in their sins after they had been filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe they had to be baptized, but I don't agree with your interpretation of saying they were still spiritually dead once they had received the Holy Spirit.

Did you know, that if someone NEVER gets baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost, and continues in sin, that they are not saved?

Why are they not saved?

They have received the Spirit, Right?

The Spirit alone does not guarantee salvation, it is primarily a tool used by God to cause us to become hungry for spiritual things, like wanting to be baptized and giving us a desire to stop sinning.

That is why the Bible terms WATER BAPTISM for the REMISSION of sins.

Spirit infilling is not for the remission of sins, but to lead a soul to get themselves water baptized for the remission of sins.

Hesetmefree238 · #10 12-15-2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Did you know, that if someone NEVER gets baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost, and continues in sin, that they are not saved?

Why are they not saved?

They have received the Spirit, Right?

The Spirit alone does not guarantee salvation, it is primarily a tool used by God to cause us to become hungry for spiritual things, like wanting to be baptized and giving us a desire to stop sinning.

That is why the Bible terms WATER BAPTISM for the REMISSION of sins.

Spirit infilling is not for the remission of sins, but to lead a soul to get themselves water baptized for the remission of sins.

We both believe baptism is part of the plan of salvation. I'm a Jesus name guy, but my point is I disagree with your description of a person filled with the Spirit, but that has not yet been water baptized. When a person is filled with the Spirit the life of Christ enters that person. They are born again, born of the Spirit. They have been made a new creature in Christ. Their heart and spirit has experienced a transformation and life giving regeneration. The inner man has been rebirthed.

So, my point is the Spirit of Christ puts the life of Christ in a believer and it is testimony and confirmation from God that he has honored the recipient's faith in Jesus and has forgiven their sins. (God doesn't fill unforgiven people. The Spirit bears witness of our sins being forgiven and that we are a part of the family of God) None of this does away with the fact that the Spirit filled believer must be baptized in Jesus name. Peter commanded this, but a person filled with the Spirit now has the life of Christ within them.