Apostolic Study Bible

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Examples?

Sure! .... would one bit of "leaven" suffice to "corrupt" the "whole" thing?

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept rose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The following is but one sentence from Page 1525, a note explaining Matthew 27:52-53 ....

"We are not told what happened to the risen saints after they WENT TO JERUSALEM."

Where is the city of Jerusalem mentioned in these passages? Nowhere! Therefore, seeing the words of Revelation 22:18 were given as a warning to those who would "add" to its contents, as it is in the example noted, I am gravely concerned, to say the least. I doubt that God takes it lightly when one alters His written Word!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Sure! .... would one bit of "leaven" suffice to "corrupt" the "whole" thing?

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept rose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The following is but one sentence from Page 1525, a note explaining Matthew 27:52-53 ....

"We are not told what happened to the risen saints after they WENT TO JERUSALEM."

Where is the city of Jerusalem mentioned in these passages? Nowhere! Therefore, seeing the words of Revelation 22:18 were given as a warning to those who would "add" to its contents, as it is in the example noted, I am gravely concerned, to say the least. I doubt that God takes it lightly when one alters His written Word!

"The Holy City" refers to Jerusalem

Neh 11:1 The princes of the people lived in Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts in the other cities.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake, put on your strength, Zion; put on your beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"The Holy City" refers to Jerusalem

Neh 11:1 The princes of the people lived in Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts in the other cities.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake, put on your strength, Zion; put on your beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean

What a bunch of sewage. Burn the forum.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"The Holy City" refers to Jerusalem

Neh 11:1 The princes of the people lived in Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts in the other cities.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake, put on your strength, Zion; put on your beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean

Oh, how I already knew you would respond in such a manner. But ..... I take no pleasure in informing you that, just as those who were responsible for the commentary in the UPCI KJV Apostolic Study Bible, you're WRONG!

The error is truly "fundamental," and so simple I find it rather strange that some of the most educated people (those with PhDs, etc attached to their names) seemed to miss it completely. It involves the small word "the." Do you get it?

The English word "the" is a superlative pronoun, and is used to refer to a specific person, place, or thing! That's elementary "stuff"!

When, in the words of Matthew 27:53 we read "THE Holy City," it means just that. Matthew was not just referring to any city, but a very specific city, "THE Holy City." And you believe that Jerusalem was such a city during the days our Lord's feet trod its streets? Not quite!

Although God had chosen it as a "holy" place where His name was to be exalted, however, when He "visited" it in the person of "the" Christ child, it had become an extremely corrupt place. In fact, so much so that we are told in Revelation 11:8 that it was known "spiritually" as "Sodom and Egypt," places that are associated with evil and wickedness.

So seguidordejesus' question remains unanswered, "So what is THE holy city?" Well, here's the Bible answer ....

Seeing that neither of the gospel accounts discloses what happened to the resurrected saints, we must determine their destiny. Paul the apostle gives us that information in the words of Ephesians 4:8, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Therefore doesn't common logic and reasoning allow one to conclude that when these resurrected saints "appeared unto many," this could ONLY have transpired in "the holy city" that is located in the heavens, and NOT the corrupted earthly city of Jerusalem? Likewise, should one not also conclude that this is why Matthew never penned anything about them after they were resurrected? Even Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, never mentioned this event in his writings.

But wait! There's even more to substantiate this conclusion. When John (the Revelator) was given visions of things within "the holy city," please note that which he saw under the altar there:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
(Revelation 6:9-11, KJV).

You guessed it! THESE are those of whom Matthew wrote about, for our Lord took them with Him when He ascended to "THE holy city" and placed them there, where they must await the ending of the present age, at which time, they together with the souls of the righteous dead who will also be resurrected at the soon coming glorious appearance of our Lord. At that time we ALL will be given a "new" heavenly body. The reason these MUST wait, is clearly revealed in the words of Hebrews 11:40, to wit, "that they without us should not be made perfect."

Do you still hold to a belief that Matthew was referring to "THE" city of Jerusalem, an earthly locale that even the language of the sacred Writ calls "Sodom and Egypt"? Please don't misunderstand me ... God will again cleanse and sanctify the earthly city of Jerusalem, for it will be from there that He will rule the entire earth in peace and righteousness for 1,000 years!

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Oh, how I already knew you would respond in such a manner. But ..... I take no pleasure in informing you that, just as those who were responsible for the commentary in the UPCI KJV Apostolic Study Bible, you're WRONG!

The error is truly "fundamental," and so simple I find it rather strange that some of the most educated people (those with PhDs, etc attached to their names) seemed to miss it completely. It involves the small word "the." Do you get it?

The English word "the" is a superlative pronoun, and is used to refer to a specific person, place, or thing! That's elementary "stuff"!

When, in the words of Matthew 27:53 we read "THE Holy City," it means just that. Matthew was not just referring to any city, but a very specific city, "THE Holy City." And you believe that Jerusalem was such a city during the days our Lord's feet trod its streets? Not quite!

Although God had chosen it as a "holy" place where His name was to be exalted, however, when He "visited" it in the person of "the" Christ child, it had become an extremely corrupt place. In fact, so much so that we are told in Revelation 11:8 that it was known "spiritually" as "Sodom and Egypt," places that are associated with evil and wickedness.

So seguidordejesus' question remains unanswered, "So what is THE holy city?" Well, here's the Bible answer ....

Seeing that neither of the gospel accounts discloses what happened to the resurrected saints, we must determine their destiny. Paul the apostle gives us that information in the words of Ephesians 4:8, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Therefore doesn't common logic and reasoning allow one to conclude that when these resurrected saints "appeared unto many," this could ONLY have transpired in "the holy city" that is located in the heavens, and NOT the corrupted earthly city of Jerusalem? Likewise, should one not also conclude that this is why Matthew never penned anything about them after they were resurrected? Even Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, never mentioned this event in his writings.

But wait! There's even more to substantiate this conclusion. When John (the Revelator) was given visions of things within "the holy city," please note that which he saw under the altar there:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
(Revelation 6:9-11, KJV).

You guessed it! THESE are those of whom Matthew wrote about, for our Lord took them with Him when He ascended to "THE holy city" and placed them there, where they must await the ending of the present age, at which time, they together with the souls of the righteous dead who will also be resurrected at the soon coming glorious appearance of our Lord. At that time we ALL will be given a "new" heavenly body. The reason these MUST wait, is clearly revealed in the words of Hebrews 11:40, to wit, "that they without us should not be made perfect."

Do you still hold to a belief that Matthew was referring to "THE" city of Jerusalem, an earthly locale that even the language of the sacred Writ calls "Sodom and Egypt"? Please don't misunderstand me ... God will again cleanse and sanctify the earthly city of Jerusalem, for it will be from there that He will rule the entire earth in peace and righteousness for 1,000 years!

I appreciate your attempt at defining the "holy city" however, IMHO your conclusion is a far stretching reach. First, in your supporting scripture from Rev. 6, verse nine clearly says the souls were "those who were slain for the word of God." In the Matthew text there is nothing to say these were those killed because of their belief in the word, or their preaching the word, or any other defense of the word. It simply says "the grave were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." The saints which slept would have been a reference to the righteous souls who had died in the generations prior to the occurrence regardless of whether they had been killed for the word or not. To come to any other conclusion is to replicate what you accuse the others of doing.

Secondly, in every instance that the "holy city" is mentioned prior to the NT it was the city of Jerusalem and it was always a corrupt place. So much so, that it was destroyed and in ruin because of its debauchery and departure from true worship...yet it was referred to as the "holy city." Again, I do enjoy many of your well thought out writings even though I may not agree with you on some points. I just believe in this case, you are trying to build a doctrinal point that is not supported by the scriptures.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I appreciate your attempt at defining the "holy city" however, IMHO your conclusion is a far stretching reach. First, in your supporting scripture from Rev. 6, verse nine clearly says the souls were "those who were slain for the word of God." In the Matthew text there is nothing to say these were those killed because of their belief in the word, or their preaching the word, or any other defense of the word. It simply says "the grave were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." The saints which slept would have been a reference to the righteous souls who had died in the generations prior to the occurrence regardless of whether they had been killed for the word or not. To come to any other conclusion is to replicate what you accuse the others of doing.

Secondly, in every instance that the "holy city" is mentioned prior to the NT it was the city of Jerusalem and it was always a corrupt place. So much so, that it was destroyed and in ruin because of its debauchery and departure from true worship...yet it was referred to as the "holy city." Again, I do enjoy many of your well thought out writings even though I may not agree with you on some points. I just believe in this case, you are trying to build a doctrinal point that is not supported by the scriptures.

I think it should be easily understood that the "souls" mentioned are those of what we commonly refer to as "Old Testament saints." Could it be said of them that they were, as you've noted, and as the words of Revelation 6:9 indicate "were slain for the word of God"? Of course! In fact, the writer of Hebrews 11 provides indisputable evidence of such (see vss. 33-38).

Seeing that you do not agree with my expressed understanding of this event, might I call upon your benevolence by asking that you provide myself, as well as others, your understanding of this matter (it is important, you know, for there is nothing recorded in the sacred Writ that is of no value, as I am sure you would readily agree).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lafon

So seguidordejesus' question remains unanswered, "So what is THE holy city?" Well, here's the Bible answer ....

Seeing that neither of the gospel accounts discloses what happened to the resurrected saints, we must determine their destiny. Paul the apostle gives us that information in the words of Ephesians 4:8, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Therefore doesn't common logic and reasoning allow one to conclude that when these resurrected saints "appeared unto many," this could ONLY have transpired in "the holy city" that is located in the heavens, and NOT the corrupted earthly city of Jerusalem?

The Holy City...is it in Heaven?
Mat 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple
Mat 4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, "'He will command his angels concerning you,' and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"

So...using your logical, the Devil took Jesus up into heaven, tempted him to fall off and gravity take him down to the ground and die...Ok

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Reading this again. It does not sound like they appeared UP IN HEAVEN to the people that were there (how would Matthew know?) The miraculous nature of this is that living people here on earth SAW the dead raised and appearing to them

Despite being corrupt, the bible calls it the Holy City in Revelation
Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

Are you telling me the nations were trampling through heaven for 42 months?

It's called the Holy City because that was/is where the temple of God is at.

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.