Original Sin

[Lafon]

Sean, Paul's words of Ephesians 2:2 & 5, that is, the phrases "who were dead in trespasses and sins" and "we were dead in sins," are what we refer to as "figures of speech," a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar.

If Paul was stating that we were truly "DEAD," then what possible way would the likes of you and I ever had to even come to an understanding of our lost condition or to petition God for forgiveness? Are the dead capable of thought, speech, or the ability to speak? Of course not! So we see we were NOT literally "dead" in our sins, else we would have been rendered utterly incapable of even knowing that we were lost sinners!

[shazeep]

i find little to argue with there; yet it begs the question why we don't abate physical death by redemption?

Originally Posted by Lafon

Sean, Paul's words of Ephesians 2:2 & 5, that is, the phrases "who were dead in trespasses and sins" and "we were dead in sins," are what we refer to as "figures of speech," a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar.

If Paul was stating that we were truly "DEAD," then what possible way would the likes of you and I ever had to even come to an understanding of our lost condition or to petition God for forgiveness? Are the dead capable of thought, speech, or the ability to speak? Of course not! So we see we were NOT literally "dead" in our sins, else we would have been rendered utterly incapable of even knowing that we were lost sinners!

ok, i maintain that the spiritually dead are dead to God; yet even those are still obviously capable of thought and speech, and may desire the Spirit. My reasoning here is that God has power over mortal life, but grants choice in the spiritual life, iow physical death is meaningless to God--and possibly our preoccupation with it is an indicator of this--and Spiritual death--which we only see poorly, if at all--is all that matters to God.

[mfblume]

Spiritual death is very real. When the bible speaks of dead in trespasses and sins, it refers to spiritual alienation from God. And when we are saved we are baptized into HIS DEATH to resurrect into newness of life right now. We are alive from the dead after having been baptized into His death. And Rom 6:11 says we must reconcile ourselves to be alive unto God, so we can then render ourselves to Him as those alive from the dead.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i find little to argue with there; yet it begs the question why we don't abate physical death by redemption?
ok, i maintain that the spiritually dead are dead to God; yet even those are still obviously capable of thought and speech, and may desire the Spirit. My reasoning here is that God has power over mortal life, but grants choice in the spiritual life, iow physical death is meaningless to God--and possibly our preoccupation with it is an indicator of this--and Spiritual death--which we only see poorly, if at all--is all that matters to God.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Spiritual death is very real. When the bible speaks of dead in trespasses and sins, it refers to spiritual alienation from God. And when we are saved we are baptized into HIS DEATH to resurrect into newness of life right now. We are alive from the dead after having been baptized into His death. And Rom 6:11 says we must reconcile ourselves to be alive unto God, so we can then render ourselves to Him as those alive from the dead.

Mike
I agree that natural death was inherited from Adam, but at what point, and how?
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Do we die natural death because of the fall, or because Adam was created from the dust of the ground?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
In forming man from the dust of the ground man was created mortal from the beginning. By breathing the breath of life into us we also became a living soul. Which makes us both mortal and spiritual, our mortality did not come from the fall, we were already mortal meaning Adam would have died at some point naturally. All mankind are born from the seed of Adam which is mortal. At the fall we became spiritually dead.
This is the primary death we should be concerned about, not so much as our mortal state. Granted the death of Christ gave us the ability to change not only our mortal state but more importantly our spiritual state.
If I understand Shazeep correctly I agree we are too wrapped up with mortally living forever than spiritually.
We have been down this road before, but again, what difference does it make whether this body rises from the grave, or our soul rises from the grave and we are given a new spiritual body. As Peter wrote, "I have a new tabernacle prepared for me when I die".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
I agree that natural death was inherited from Adam, but at what point, and how?
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Do we die natural death because of the fall, or because Adam was created from the dust of the ground?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
In forming man from the dust of the ground man was created mortal from the beginning. By breathing the breath of life into us we also became a living soul. Which makes us both mortal and spiritual, our mortality did not come from the fall, we were already mortal meaning Adam would have died at some point naturally. All mankind are born from the seed of Adam which is mortal. At the fall we became spiritually dead.
This is the primary death we should be concerned about, not so much as our mortal state. Granted the death of Christ gave us the ability to change not only our mortal state but more importantly our spiritual state.
If I understand Shazeep correctly I agree we are too wrapped up with mortally living forever than spiritually.
We have been down this road before, but again, what difference does it make whether this body rises from the grave, or our soul rises from the grave and we are given a new spiritual body. As Peter wrote, "I have a new tabernacle prepared for me when I die".

Brother, I can only get what I propose form what I see in the bible. I dare not propose points of emphasis that I do not get from the bible.

I also realize I may have interpreted the bible incorrectly, since I saw that in a great measure in my futurist days.

But, having said that, I must repeat what I already presented to you. Jesus Christ's physical death was required for sin showing us that physical death is a result of sin and payment for sin involves it. And He had to physically die as part of our means of salvation.

The reason it matters whether or not our body rises from the dead or not is because I can see no other issue being proposed in 1 Cor 15 than a body rising from the dead in resurrection. That's all. I have not ulterior motives in saying bodies rise from the grave. We would not have known about bodies coming from graves if it had not been for the scriptures. So, it's not a matter of being wrapped up in the physical. It's a matter of repeating what we see in the bible.

[thephnxman]

"Let us create man in our image and after our likeness...And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

The question should be, WHY was a physical body prepared for man? He was already created
in God's "...image and likeness." I see two reason for man's body: a) to keep man bound to
the earth from which he was formed to fulfill God's will in him; b) to give him the means
to procreate. In procreation, we can assume God KNEW man would sin and eventually
die. However, death could not take place until man incurred the penalty of the curse of death.
(We must remember that God is omniscient)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"Let us create man in our image and after our likeness...And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

The question should be, WHY was a physical body prepared for man? He was already created
in God's "...image and likeness." I see two reason for man's body: a) to keep man bound to
the earth from which he was formed to fulfill God's will in him; b) to give him the means
to procreate. In procreation, we can assume God KNEW man would sin and eventually
die. However, death could not take place until man incurred the penalty of the curse of death.
(We must remember that God is omniscient)

Something to consider: If physical bodies are for procreation, then why will we be like the angels who do not procreate after we receive immortal bodies in the resurrection?

I believe our bodies are for this world. And immortal bodies mean we will rule in this world for ever after the resurrection and pass between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm back and forth.

Psa 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

We're not meant to dwell in heaven forever.



What would have happened if Adam never sinned? He never would have died and gone to heaven!

Salvation points toward returning to man what Adam lost in the Garden before he sinned. That includes immortal physical bodies with which to rule this world. Heaven is only for disembodied souls and spirits after death until the resurrection. God put Adam to rule in the earth! THAT IS ULTIMATE KINGDOM truth, I believe.