Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[n david]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

How old was Mary when she was betrothed to the previously married Joseph the Carpenter and became stepmother to his long-since-grown sons?

The notion Joseph was previously married is in much dispute and has been discredited by many scholars. The only child which the Bible calls the son of Mary is Jesus. None of the so-called "brethren" of Jesus are called sons of Mary or Joseph in the Bible. Many disputing this state they were cousins of Jesus, not siblings.

At the foot of the cross, it is said Mary of Clopas was there. Who was Clopas? Clopas is recorded as Joseph's brother; Mary of Clopas the wife of Clopas. Accordingly, James and Jude (two of the "brethren") are sons of Mary, wife of Clopas. So this would have been the nephews of St. Joseph and cousins of Jesus. So the apocrypha took as easy way out and described "brethren" as Joseph's children from another marriage.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by n david

No one knows for sure Mary's age. Jewish custom would have allowed her to marry at age 12, though most put her age between 15-16 at the time of Jesus' birth.

Historically accurate.

Originally Posted by n david

The notion Joseph was previously married is in much dispute and has been discredited by many scholars. The only child which the Bible calls the son of Mary is Jesus. None of the so-called "brethren" of Jesus are called sons of Mary or Joseph in the Bible. Many disputing this state they were cousins of Jesus, not siblings.

Good post.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Historically accurate.



Good post.

Jesus was born to a teenage girl? <gasp>

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Jesus was born to a teenage girl? <gasp>

Yes but not pre-teen.

Young girls married early.


“Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph.”

An espousal or betrothal is the act of engagement for marriage, a formal agreement that may take the form of a verbal promise or a written contract between two individuals. The betrothal is an ancient custom dating from biblical times when marriages were arranged by a parent or guardian. It was considered the beginning of marriage, and since it was legally binding, the pledge could not be broken except by a bill of divorce. This is the reason why Joseph is referred to as the husband of Mary in verse 19 of the first chapter of Matthew.
The presentation of gifts often accompanied or signified a marriage contract. When Abraham’s servant received the consent of Rebekah’s father and brother to make her the wife of his master’s son, he presented valuable gifts to Rebekah (see Genesis 24:53).
In societies where arranged marriages still exist, the families concerned must negotiate dowries, future living arrangements, and other important matters before marriage can be arranged. Espousals were often made very early in life, though marriage did not take place until the bride reached twelve years of age or had experienced her first menstrual cycle. Infant betrothal or marriage, still prevalent in places such as India and Melanesia, is a result of concern for family, caste, and property alliances. During the Middle Ages, arranged betrothals were used to strengthen royal dynasties, establish diplomatic alliances, and increase estates and fortunes. Even when the age was suitable, the marriage was not consummated for some time after the betrothal. The bride remained at her father’s or guardian’s home until the time of the marriage.


Freeman, J. M., & Chadwick, H. J. (1998). Manners & customs of the Bible (397). North Brunswick, NJ: Bridge-Logos Publishers.

[Praxeas]

I think it's disgusting. But it was a facet of Bedouin culture. Much of the Quran is based on Bedouin culture.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think it's disgusting. But it was a facet of Bedouin culture. Much of the Quran is based on Bedouin culture.

Yet the Quran banned several types of marriages and marriage practices that reflected Bedouin culture at the time. Marriage by force, marriage by inheritance (sons at one time inherited their mothers as wives eww), other types of incestuous marriages, and marriages that were forced on women who conceived children from "several possible fathers" (now we have TV shows about that LOL).

Under the Quran the entire view of marriage changed and was replaced with a set of specific rules.

Know this: These changes were NOT popular with the locals.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Yet the Quran banned several types of marriages and marriage practices that reflected Bedouin culture at the time. Marriage by force, marriage by inheritance (sons at one time inherited their mothers as wives eww), other types of incestuous marriages, and marriages that were forced on women who conceived children from "several possible fathers" (now we have TV shows about that LOL).

Under the Quran the entire view of marriage changed and was replaced with a set of specific rules.

Know this: These changes were NOT popular with the locals.

Where is forced marriages banned? Didn't Muhammad and others raid cities, killing all the men and taking female slaves as wives?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes but not pre-teen.

Young girls married early.


“Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph.”

An espousal or betrothal is the act of engagement for marriage, a formal agreement that may take the form of a verbal promise or a written contract between two individuals. The betrothal is an ancient custom dating from biblical times when marriages were arranged by a parent or guardian. It was considered the beginning of marriage, and since it was legally binding, the pledge could not be broken except by a bill of divorce. This is the reason why Joseph is referred to as the husband of Mary in verse 19 of the first chapter of Matthew.
The presentation of gifts often accompanied or signified a marriage contract. When Abraham’s servant received the consent of Rebekah’s father and brother to make her the wife of his master’s son, he presented valuable gifts to Rebekah (see Genesis 24:53).
In societies where arranged marriages still exist, the families concerned must negotiate dowries, future living arrangements, and other important matters before marriage can be arranged. Espousals were often made very early in life, though marriage did not take place until the bride reached twelve years of age or had experienced her first menstrual cycle. Infant betrothal or marriage, still prevalent in places such as India and Melanesia, is a result of concern for family, caste, and property alliances. During the Middle Ages, arranged betrothals were used to strengthen royal dynasties, establish diplomatic alliances, and increase estates and fortunes. Even when the age was suitable, the marriage was not consummated for some time after the betrothal. The bride remained at her father’s or guardian’s home until the time of the marriage.


Freeman, J. M., & Chadwick, H. J. (1998). Manners & customs of the Bible (397). North Brunswick, NJ: Bridge-Logos Publishers.

Married teen report stands. Why? She appears to have left her family's and was a part of Joseph's household based on the story that they travelled to Bethlehem together, as a couple, for the census. I highly doubt that they raised any eyebrows along the way. I truly believe that you aren't implying that Joseph was "sneaking a teen girl across state lines" so to speak without being married to her.

Back to topic which is sin, not history, as your colleague (yea you can have him take him please) has said enough times to make one nauseated:

Is the above a sin or not a sin?

Marriage at young ages IS a distasteful practice. I agree. Based on the Bible: Sinful? Yes or No? I cannot find anything, anywhere, that says that it is.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Married teen report stands. Why? She appears to have left her family's and was a part of Joseph's household based on the story that they travelled to Bethlehem together, as a couple, for the census. I highly doubt that they raised any eyebrows along the way. I truly believe that you aren't implying that Joseph was "sneaking a teen girl across state lines" so to speak without being married to her.

Back to topic which is sin, not history, as your colleague (yea you can have him take him please) has said enough times to make one nauseated:

Is the above a sin or not a sin?

Marriage at young ages IS a distasteful practice. I agree. Based on the Bible: Sinful? Yes or No? I cannot find anything, anywhere, that says that it is.

bY YOUR OWN WORDS:
(Php 4:8 KJV) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

(Php 4:8 ESV) Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.


(Jas 4:17 KJV) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(Jas 4:17 ESV) So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Common sense makes it clear that a prepubescent girl should never have to deal with a 50+ year old man like your prophet or the multitudes of Mohammedans that have followed the teachings of that man.

I could get into a Bible study but you have already proven you don't care.
Is it a "sin" for a 50 year old man to consumate a marriage with a 9 year old girl? Yes.

The Bible never condones such a twisted "distaseful" practice. In every marriage God did condone it was always with a mature young woman or an older woman.

I am glad you admit the practice of your "holy man" was distasteful.
I am glad you acknowledge that your deity is "distasteful".
I am glad you recognize that the teachings of your "holy man" are distasteful.

You may not practice this but your religion does and you have spent much time defending the "distasteful" practice.

So when are you going to leave that distasteful religious system?
Seems to me that if you truly thought is was egregious you would leave and would have left already.
Your actions speak louder than words.
You really don't care.
You have no problem supporting such a diabolical system.
Shame on you.
Shame on that religious system that is based on manipulation and exploitation.
Shame on your "prophet".
Shame on your deity.

Go ahead and continue to support and defend the indefensible. Let everyone know what muslims think about that practice...

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pliny

The Bible never condones such a " currently distaseful" practice. In every marriage God did condone it was always with a mature young woman or an older woman.

Distaseful is not actually a real word. You are still e-stuttering. Lay off the coffee. I was not talking to you anyway. You have posts way back that were addressed to you but you have chosen to ignore them and have injected unwelcome information of zero value into what was a polite discussion.

While I supplied specific references from the book of Numbers where it was specifically condoned and even commanded I will not accept unrelated passages from you that have nothing to do with those specific commands.

You were actually tasked with providing information that you have failed to provide. Now you are reaching for any unrelated passage you can find to justify applying your personal definition of sin to all of history.

That's pathetic.

Your insults minus the information you were tasked to bring back and share mean nothing here. It does not take a whole bible study to answer the very direct and simple questions that have been asked of you. You are right about one thing. I did care, but that was when I thought I would learn something new. Now I do not.

I did not ask for stories of a Shia Ayatollah and I did not ask you about "common sense". You have nothing to teach here except that you are another apostolic who feels qualified to judge in place of God. Yawn. There are many of you. Get back in line. You spoke out of turn.