Obey them that have the rule over you

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?

Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?

How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I believe that most who pastor a church or elders wichever you call it know that a title and a position doesn't get you very far with people. Trust is earned. When people learn to trust that you care for them and want only to help them in their relationship with God then they will decide the leaders they allow in their life. If you are serving God you will have Godly influence in your life(I call them pastors)!!!! When a person is hungry for God they look for any place they can possibly glean from.

Bro. GS - I appreciate the sweet spirit that you always share your thoughts with. Please understand that thread was not started with a "pastor bashing" discussion in mind.

I truly believe with all my heart, and perhaps more than ever before, in worthy servant-led leadership in the church. Sadly, there is so much leadership today by those who feel "called" to the ministry (or set in place by their fathers) who feel "called" to a position with perks and benefits, and want no part being the servant in ministry that Jesus spoke of.

I hope that more discussion on the subject will open the eyes of those who think a pastor or person in leadership can act as a dictator towards those who he is leading. We certainly don't see a dictatorship/pope type leadership example anywhere in the NT church. Instead we see Paul speaking of working with his own hands, traveling from church to church, experiencing persecution, and exhorting believers to follow his faith as a leader, setting up elders, deacons, and bishops in the churches to lead the church by example.

Bro. GS, from reading your posts, I sense your heartfelt desire to lead your church towards a more powerful relationship with the Lord, and believe that from what I have read of your posts, that your desire is to further the kingdom of God, and not rule as a dictator, setting up your own personal church kingdom. God Bless

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

LOL... I wouldn't begrudge giving to those who are truly laboring in the gospel, and don't. We give where there are needs that need to be met, wherever they are. It gives us great joy to give.

There is not a modern day minister that I know of who has not - at least at one point in their ministry - asked for money. Do you know of one? Lol

We don't find record of Paul raising money for his missionary trips, but we do see him writing of the need of the persecuted saints in Jerusalem for which he took up a collection for to bring to them.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have heard scholars say that most today use only enough hebrew and greek to get into trouble with their interpretations. I use a strong sometimes but If it changes the meaning based upon my study then I will stick with what the Bible says. It makes no sense to me why we think interpretations are getting more reliable. As time goes further and culture becomes more foreign then I believe that the KJV translation is more reliable then anyone on this forum. In a hundred years we will have people saying the words mean something different then what we believe now. All of my family have depended ancestory have relied on the KJV translation and I trust it.

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?
Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?
How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

OK. Let’s put our emphasis on the words in bold, not detracting from
the content or
the Biblical context.

v. 21) Many will call Him “Lord”, only giving Him lip service. Those
who hear and obey will inherit God’s kingdom.
[Hear what?] Hear the call to repent and heed the gospel that saves:
THAT is the will of the Father;

v. 22) “There is none other NAME…”. There is power in the NAME
of Jesus! The power is not in the person or the denomination: it is in the NAME.
Using the power of the NAME does not mean the person is right: it means the
person is using the right NAME!
“But why were they healed, delivered, etc.?” Because God honors the NAME
and testifies of the power and righteousness endowed to the bearer of the NAME!
These are people who believe, but have not obeyed: they are in rebellion
with the word of God;

v. 23) There was no “intimacy” with the Lord. Adam“knew” Eve:
he had an intimate relationship with her. There is something above
all else that hinders intimacy with God: it is disobedience: it will manifest
itself in the refusal to repent, be baptized, or receive the impartation
of the Holy Spirit.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

OK. Let’s put our emphasis on the words in bold, not detracting from
the content or
the Biblical context.

v. 21) Many will call Him “Lord”, only giving Him lip service. Those
who hear and obey will inherit God’s kingdom.
[Hear what?] Hear the call to repent and heed the gospel that saves:
THAT is the will of the Father;

v. 22) “There is none other NAME…”. There is power in the NAME
of Jesus! The power is not in the person or the denomination: it is in the NAME.
Using the power of the NAME does not mean the person is right: it means the
person is using the right NAME!
“But why were they healed, delivered, etc.?” Because God honors the NAME
and testifies of the power and righteousness endowed to the bearer of the NAME!
These are people who believe, but have not obeyed: they are in rebellion
with the word of God;

v. 23) There was no “intimacy” with the Lord. Adam“knew” Eve:
he had an intimate relationship with her. There is something above
all else that hinders intimacy with God: it is disobedience: it will manifest
itself in the refusal to repent, be baptized, or receive the impartation
of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for taking the time to share your understanding of this verse. It is what I have understood it to mean as well. It is good for all of us to understand that just because we witness power, miracles, and authority using the name of Jesus does not immediately signify that the one being used of God is actually in submission to the Lord, and is in right standing with the Lord.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

I have noticed when looking up words in my strong's that the alternative words to describe the one Hebrew or Greek word it is trying to define. The KJV translators have already translated the scriptures hundreds of years ago and I have faith that God would preserve His word through their translation. I believe that their choice of the word obey was for a reason. Many times the choice of English word had a lot to do with the context it was used in. Many times one greek word is used by multiple English words and sometimes the words even have conflicting meanings.

I don't have time to start giving examples, but I have seen it several times in my studies. I am sure there is a reason this is done that I am not aware of. It would probably be impossible for us to go through scripture and re-translate and I don't think ours would be reliable. lol. The word follow and obey doesn't have the same meaning although with some explaining I can see how they correlate. The problem is that follow puts less emphasis on having leadership in your life.

It just seems to me that a lot of people have written posts that show disdain for church government and leaders. I understand what is like for a leader to hurt you but also as a leader I also know what it is like to be hurt by people who I have poured myself into serving. I just believe people should be careful not allow bitterness to enter there heart and become a rebel with a christian label.

P.s I am not saying this directed at you. I just think this is a good thread to communicate my thoughts on subject.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have noticed when looking up words in my strong's that the alternative words to describe the one Hebrew or Greek word it is trying to define. The KJV translators have already translated the scriptures hundreds of years ago and I have faith that God would preserve His word through their translation. I believe that their choice of the word obey was for a reason. Many times the choice of English word had a lot to do with the context it was used in. Many times one greek word is used by multiple English words and sometimes the words even have conflicting meanings.

I don't have time to start giving examples, but I have seen it several times in my studies. I am sure there is a reason this is done that I am not aware of. It would probably be impossible for us to go through scripture and re-translate and I don't think ours would be reliable. lol. The word follow and obey doesn't have the same meaning although with some explaining I can see how they correlate. The problem is that follow puts less emphasis on having leadership in your life.

It just seems to me that a lot of people have written posts that show disdain for church government and leaders. I understand what is like for a leader to hurt you but also as a leader I also know what it is like to be hurt by people who I have poured myself into serving. I just believe people should be careful not allow bitterness to enter there heart and become a rebel with a christian label.

P.s I am not saying this directed at you. I just think this is a good thread to communicate my thoughts on subject.

G.S., if I may add to your post a little....

The KJV translators had their own personal works to use in the Greek- English translation method.

The most recent Greek/English translations(Strongs etc.) are hundreds of years removed from 1611 and these recent works are only subject to the authors opinions.

Our best bet is to trust the KJV translators with the closest translation of English words translated from ancient Greek, because they were fluent in a more "traditional" form of ancient Greek, rather than trust the ones that learned it hundreds of years later in classrooms in a "hand me down" arena of thought or opinion.


All I use is an old dictionary for word search meanings.

[shazeep]

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.

Who is the Holy Spirit?