Original Sin

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike

I am glad you brought this passage up, because it is one that I think you miss part of.

When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

We have another tabernacle one not made with hands that is eternal in the heavens.

Peter also speaks of leaving this tabernacle (body) behind at his death.

2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Where as Paul says we have another tabernacle prepared not made with hands in the heavens.

So if this body is like an earth suit for our soul, and I agree. And we have a heavenly suit, prepared for us upon our death. In which we shall for ever be with the Lord. Why would we desire to return to earth?

My thoughts, to coin your phrase. I believe the kingdom of God today is the kingdom that will last for eternity. I know that is hard for some to grasp. But we have the fulfillment of God spirit available to whosoever will. Mankind as a whole has dominion over the earth, which was never lost or taken away. We have the ability to destroy this earth, or preserve this earth.

As Christians we are to pray and actively bring the kingdom of God to earth as it is in heaven, as Christ instructed us. One the one hand Christians have gravely failed in this, for we have not been actively been involved in feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick, the orphans, widows, and homeless on the scale we are commanded to do. But on the other hand Christians have influenced the world for the better, anyone that does not see this must be blinded by the negative aspects of the world as passed down by our news media. I contend that the world is far better than we give ourselves credit for as far as the influence of Christianity in the world.

That being said, I for one believe in a eternal dwelling place with the Lord in a place we call heaven. If Jesus said thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, there must be a heaven.

As scripture says, "it is appointed unto men to die then the judgment" we all will die. But as Paul says "today judgment begins at the house of God", those in the kingdom of God have been judged already, and pass from this life to eternal life.

What? Am I reading this correctly? You don't believe that this same tabernacle of flesh
will be transformed into immortality?

I believe the kingdom of the son is eternal (everlasting), because as sons and daughters we
will reign with the Lord. But it will not be in the same bodies which we now inhabit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

What? Am I reading this correctly? You don't believe that this same tabernacle of flesh
will be transformed into immortality?

I believe the kingdom of the son is eternal (everlasting), because as sons and daughters we
will reign with the Lord. But it will not be in the same bodies which we now inhabit.

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.

But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.

But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

The irony of it all. Thank you though for the first statement. Concerning the second statement, do you not believe Adam (mankind) is presently ruling the world? At what point in the history of mankind have we lost dominion of the earth?

On one hand scripture states that of his kingdom there is no end, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the kingdom of God. While the world has tried over the centuries to stamp out the kingdom of God, God's kingdom has prevailed. The kingdom of God has prevailed in ages past and will continue to grow in ages to come.

On the other hand, to say mankind does not rule the world, would in my opinion be an understatement. Mankind has tamed the most ferocious of beast, harnessed the elements, and established himself as the most dominate creature on the earth. The question should not be are we in dominion, because I believe we are. But rather will we preserve the earth for ages to come.

Concerning the Resurrection, fulfilled eschatology teachers refer to the time stamps within scripture time and time again I wonder why they do not do so concerning the resurrection. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live". Using the same principle we use when we quote, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Was not the resurrection to happen at this same time?
For most Christians the only reason they do not believe the resurrection happened at that time is because there is not recorded a bodily resurrection that was seen.
We have a unscriptural mind set that at the resurrection these bodies are going to break out of the graves so that the world will know that the resurrection has happened. But by the very fact that some in the early church were teaching that the resurrection had already past, should led us to understand that even then the early church did not think the resurrection would be something visible.
The fact is there was a visible representation of the resurrection, after the resurrection of Christ, where many that had died rose from the grave and were seen of many.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The irony of it all. Thank you though for the first statement. Concerning the second statement, do you not believe Adam (mankind) is presently ruling the world? At what point in the history of mankind have we lost dominion of the earth?

We lost dominion in Genesis 3. Man now does not rule the earth but the earth and sin rules him. Man is ruled by PLANTS! Drugs. Man is ruled by HIS sex organs!! Lust and adultery and fornication of ever kind. Man is ruled by CIRCUMSTANCES like sickness.

Man cannot even rule his own spirit. He is not ruling the earth well at all, if at all. Nation continues to war against nation. Great dominion, Adam!

On one hand scripture states that of his kingdom there is no end, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the kingdom of God. While the world has tried over the centuries to stamp out the kingdom of God, God's kingdom has prevailed. The kingdom of God has prevailed in ages past and will continue to grow in ages to come.

That is the interim kingdom in the spirit where we now are kings and priests... .well some believers, anyway. Kingdom-future kills that for the most. But when all is done, we shall rule the earth literally as we now gain power over sin, the flesh, devils and sickness.

On the other hand, to say mankind does not rule the world, would in my opinion be an understatement. Mankind has tamed the most ferocious of beast, harnessed the elements, and established himself as the most dominate creature on the earth. The question should not be are we in dominion, because I believe we are. But rather will we preserve the earth for ages to come.

I disagree for reasons stated above.

Concerning the Resurrection, fulfilled eschatology teachers refer to the time stamps within scripture time and time again I wonder why they do not do so concerning the resurrection. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live". Using the same principle we use when we quote, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Was not the resurrection to happen at this same time?

For most Christians the only reason they do not believe the resurrection happened at that time is because there is not recorded a bodily resurrection that was seen.

We have a unscriptural mind set that at the resurrection these bodies are going to break out of the graves so that the world will know that the resurrection has happened. But by the very fact that some in the early church were teaching that the resurrection had already past, should led us to understand that even then the early church did not think the resurrection would be something visible.

The fact is there was a visible representation of the resurrection, after the resurrection of Christ, where many that had died rose from the grave and were seen of many.

It is not unscriptural. There are two resurrections. NON PHYSICAL AND PHYSICAL.

NON PHYSICAL - SALVATION:
Joh 5:24-29 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


PHYSICAL FROM GRAVES:
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice he said NOW IS in the first instance, nut not he second because the second is FUTURE ALONE.

[Godsdrummer]

We have gotten off the subject of this thread Maybe we should start a new thread. With the last few posting on the resurrection moved over.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.
But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

An opinion: I agree.

"I" am in error? Or is everyone in error...?

If it was just for Adam to "rule forever", then YES; you would be correct. But you are missing
some vital evidence and information. It is found everywhere we look: on earth, and in the
universe. It is that everything is eroding; that is, getting old and dying out: and that which
is dying out is also being renewed.

It is the witness of death that brings the promise of life, for without death, there would be no
need of being renewed. It is the same with the day beginning in the evening, and is followed
by darkness: and then comes the promise of LIGHT. The evening represents OUR beginning in
creation; the night, the fall of man; the morning, our redemption. This witness is found in the
first six days: so it represents our creation to the END of our redemption: it is six days. Now
the sixth day is also from the evening, to the morning. So now the morning AFTER the sixth day
is the Day of Rest. It is eternal.

Yes, Beloved, you missed it. Not that I ever responded: but a dictionary will never resolve
our questions. Our witness lies in the content and context of scripture: it can only be found by
the Spirit that spoke to Moses.

Simon Peter's and Nicodemus' testimony are the same: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar
Jonah, for flesh and blood hast not revealed this unto you but my Father which is in heaven."

No, we will not live forever in a place that was not meant to abide forever. The Church
is eternal, and we meant to abide in Him that is eternal. When the believer received
the Holy Spirit, as we have obeyed the gospel, we have received eternity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

An opinion: I agree.

"I" am in error? Or is everyone in error...?

If it was just for Adam to "rule forever", then YES; you would be correct. But you are missing
some vital evidence and information. It is found everywhere we look: on earth, and in the
universe. It is that everything is eroding; that is, getting old and dying out: and that which
is dying out is also being renewed.

It is the witness of death that brings the promise of life, for without death, there would be no
need of being renewed. It is the same with the day beginning in the evening, and is followed
by darkness: and then comes the promise of LIGHT. The evening represents OUR beginning in
creation; the night, the fall of man; the morning, our redemption. This witness is found in the
first six days: so it represents our creation to the END of our redemption: it is six days. Now
the sixth day is also from the evening, to the morning. So now the morning AFTER the sixth day
is the Day of Rest. It is eternal.

Yes, Beloved, you missed it. Not that I ever responded: but a dictionary will never resolve
our questions. Our witness lies in the content and context of scripture: it can only be found by
the Spirit that spoke to Moses.

Simon Peter's and Nicodemus' testimony are the same: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar
Jonah, for flesh and blood hast not revealed this unto you but my Father which is in heaven."

No, we will not live forever in a place that was not meant to abide forever. The Church
is eternal, and we meant to abide in Him that is eternal. When the believer received
the Holy Spirit, as we have obeyed the gospel, we have received eternity.

Scripture, as you say, is the deciding factor. We can't speculate and say that God foreordained man to not live on the earth forever because he foresaw man's fall and satan's rebellion, though.

Again, eternal means there is no beginning as well as no ending. So, the church is not eternal. It had a beginning.

To say everything is eroding, as in the second law of thermodynamics, called entropy, is still speculation to use that and say we were not meant to liver forever physically. I am not dogmatic about this next point, but who is to say the universe did not start degrading til Adam sinned? If not, how do you know? And who knows? Maybe a new heaven and earth are literal and that's why they're being made new. For us!

The fact remains that heaven is not an abode for the physical, since we are absent from the body when we die and ware with the Lord.

But you still never told me where you feel we'll spend eternity, location-wise.

If we leave the bible "as is," and realize redemption is returning us back to prefall status of Adam, the plainest picture is we shall rule forever in the physical on the earth.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Scripture, as you say, is the deciding factor. We can't speculate and say that (1) God foreordained man to not live on the earth forever because he foresaw man's fall and satan's rebellion, though.
Again, (2) eternal means there is no beginning as well as no ending. So, the church is not eternal. It had a beginning.
To say everything is eroding, as in the second law of thermodynamics, called entropy, is still speculation to use that and say we were not meant to liver forever physically. I am not dogmatic about this next point, but who is to say the universe did not start degrading til Adam sinned? If not, how do you know? And who knows? (3)Maybe a new heaven and earth are literal and that's why they're being made new. For us!
The fact remains that (4) heaven is not an abode for the physical, since we are absent from the body when we die and ware with the Lord.
But you still never told me where you feel we'll spend eternity, location-wise.
If we leave the bible "as is," and realize (5) redemption is returning us back to prefall status of Adam, the plainest picture is we shall rule forever in the physical on the earth.

Let's see:
(1): God did indeed ordain for man not to live forever in this flesh: else He would have
already created us in an immortal body, not subject to death in sin;

(2): Correct: eternity is eternal, as is God..and is not a place. We were created from
that which is eternal, so the Church is eternal in Him;

(3) "MAYBE the new heaven...": so you confess that you don't know. If YOU don't
know, how can you say I or anyone else, don't know?

(4) I have never said heaven is a place...you surmised that I said that;

(5) Redemption is buying man back from sin: it is NOT "returning us back to "prefall status" in the garden; rather, it is taking us back to God's original plan of expressing His love in man.

God's redemption is two-fold: (1) buy man back without a price; and (2) judge and punish sin.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Let's see:
(1): God did indeed ordain for man not to live forever in this flesh: else He would have
already created us in an immortal body, not subject to death in sin;

I MUST disagree with your assertion, for its premise is that when God, who is PERFECT (see Matthew 5:48), created Adam and Eve, He created them as IMPERFECT human beings.

Does not the infallible, inerrant words of Genesis 1:31 explicitly state that at the end of His act of creating the heavens and the earth on the sixth day, including ALL things that are therein, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"?

I am persuaded to believe that when God created the substantive body of Adam, as well as Eve, their bodies were meant to be immortal, however, when rebellion and sin entered the human experience, which brought into existence the "promised" judgment of death upon Adam's body, then it became a corrupt thing, therefore inheriting mortality as a result. If it were that sin had never entered into the human experience, Adam and Eve's bodies would never have died!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I MUST disagree with your assertion, for its premise is that when God, who is PERFECT (see Matthew 5:48), created Adam and Eve, He created them as IMPERFECT human beings.
Does not the infallible, inerrant words of Genesis 1:31 explicitly state that at the end of His act of creating the heavens and the earth on the sixth day, including ALL things that are therein, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"?
I am persuaded to believe that when God created the substantive body of Adam, as well as Eve, their bodies were meant to be immortal, however, when rebellion and sin entered the human experience, which brought into existence the "promised" judgment of death upon Adam's body, then it became a corrupt thing, therefore inheriting mortality as a result. If it were that sin had never entered into the human experience, Adam and Eve's bodies would never have died!

Beloved, my statement agrees with scripture
"Let us make man in our image...likeness...So God created man...". And then: "And God
formed man from the dust of the ground."

You are correct from the point of view of Gen. 2:7. Adam's BODY OF FLESH, like our own,
was not perfect because it was to know sin and death. That said, however, Adam was created
in God's image and likeness: eternal. God knew Adam was to sin, so He did not create him in
an immortal body, but "...formed him from the dust of the ground." That is, from a substance
(earth) that was not destined to be eternal! Thus, Adam's body was mortal from the beginning,
although death did not occur until sin was conceived.

Now, if the body of man was to be immortal, or not eternal, then so also that from which the body
was formed. That is not the case: for this universe was also created with a beginning and an end:
else why do the scriptures state "In the beginning...".

Tell me, from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and fills eternity,
where was the universe? "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word
of God, so that things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."