Trinity: False Doctrine of Blind Leaders.

[Coffee99]

There is much talk of various creeds. Perhaps it would help to see, in English, the original creed. Knock yourselves out, but at maybe this will provide a common starting point for debate.

Please Note: In refering to the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" this does not refer to the RCC! The creed, also known as the Confession of Faith, was determined prior to the RCC pulling away from what is now known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, in 1054, in large part over Rome changing the Creed! This Creed was done in 325 by the 1st Ecumenical Council of Nicaea and this is NOT the creed used by the RCC.

Please also note that the commonly accepted meaning of "catholic" by the RCC is 'universal'. However, the Eastern Orthodox has always accepted the meaning of "catholic" to mean 'wholeness' or 'fullness'.



The Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things
visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotton Son of God,
begotton of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten
not created, of one essence with the Father,
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and the dead; His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come. Amen.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Coffee99

There is much talk of various creeds. Perhaps it would help to see, in English, the original creed. Knock yourselves out, but at maybe this will provide a common starting point for debate.

Please Note: In refering to the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" this does not refer to the RCC! The creed, also known as the Confession of Faith, was determined prior to the RCC pulling away from what is now known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, in 1054, in large part over Rome changing the Creed! This Creed was done in 325 by the 1st Ecumenical Council of Nicaea and this is NOT the creed used by the RCC.

Please also note that the commonly accepted meaning of "catholic" by the RCC is 'universal'. However, the Eastern Orthodox has always accepted the meaning of "catholic" to mean 'wholeness' or 'fullness'.



The Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things
visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotton Son of God,
begotton of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten
not created, of one essence with the Father,
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and the dead; His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come. Amen.

I see no conflict with scripture in the wording of this creed. This is 325 AD, there is no mention of eternal damnation, this along with other evidences from history make is unlikely that the early church embraced it.

Originally Posted by crakjak

I see no conflict with scripture in the wording of this creed. This is 325 AD, there is no mention of eternal damnation, this along with other evidences from history make is unlikely that the early church embraced it.

This version of the Creed is actually the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D. The Creed of 325 A.D. ended after "We believe in the Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost." Here is the original Nicene Creed of 325 A.D.:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I see no conflict with scripture in the wording of this creed. This is 325 AD, there is no mention of eternal damnation, this along with other evidences from history make is unlikely that the early church embraced it.

The purpose of this creed was to counter Arianism....not to teach on eternal damnation

At the same time one notes there is no teaching here about Universal Salvation either

Originally Posted by Coffee99

There is much talk of various creeds. Perhaps it would help to see, in English, the original creed. Knock yourselves out, but at maybe this will provide a common starting point for debate.

Please Note: In refering to the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" this does not refer to the RCC! The creed, also known as the Confession of Faith, was determined prior to the RCC pulling away from what is now known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, in 1054, in large part over Rome changing the Creed! This Creed was done in 325 by the 1st Ecumenical Council of Nicaea and this is NOT the creed used by the RCC.

Please also note that the commonly accepted meaning of "catholic" by the RCC is 'universal'. However, the Eastern Orthodox has always accepted the meaning of "catholic" to mean 'wholeness' or 'fullness'.



The Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things
visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotton Son of God,
begotton of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten
not created, of one essence with the Father,
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and the dead; His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come. Amen.

This is, in fact, the Creed to which I adhere. I also adhere to the Confession given at the Synod of Mar Aqaq in 486 A.D. (though I would replace "copies of their natures" with simply "their natures"):

But our faith in the dispensation of Christ should also be in a confession of two natures of Godhead and manhood, none of us venturing to introduce mixture, commingling, or confusion into the distinctions of those two natures. Instead, while Godhead remains and is preserved in that which belongs to it, and manhood in that which belongs to it, we combine the copies of their natures in one Lordship and one worship because of the perfect and inseparable conjunction which the Godhead had with the manhood. If anyone thinks or teaches others that suffering and change adhere to the Godhead of our Lord, not preserving - in regard to the union of the parsopa* of our Savior - the confession of perfect God and perfect man, the same shall be anathema.

To put this latter Confession into simpler terms, those things that pertain the Jesus' divinity do not pertain to His humanity and those things pertaining to His humanity do not pertain to His divinity. Yet, there remains the hypostatic union of Jesus' divinity and His humanity.


*Aramaic for the Greek word prosopon.