Some standing here

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The preterist view was Christianity's majority view for over fifteen hundred years. The futurist view has since taken that majority position among Christians only over the last two hundred years or so. It actually mushroomed into the majority view that it now is shortly after John Nelson Darby began teaching it in the late 1880’s. This is when the "Pretribulation Rapture" doctrine really began...




Sean cut the theatrics and joking, if you actually did any study rather than repeat verbatim the things you were indoctrinated with by a man, you might have a different view of things.

That is merely your opinion, along with a number of other ancient heretics, Loren......
Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century......http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm

The ideas of preterism were only swirling around, because Israel was ceased as a nation, then it gained momentum with Alcazar, upon the writing of his beliefs.

Preterism is stopped in its tracks and has zero credibility now, with the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

That is merely your opinion, along with a number of other ancient heretics, Loren......
Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century......http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm

The ideas of preterism were only swirling around, because Israel was ceased as a nation, then it gained momentum with Alcazar, upon the writing of his beliefs.

Preterism is stopped in its tracks and has zero credibility now, with the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

Oh, just like a Jesuit Francisco Ribera made up futurism concerning a future Antichrist, and a rapture which would happen 3.5 years into a tribulation?

Sean, you never studied this stuff, all you do is cut and paste off of Google like it was the voice of God.

Go pay your tithes.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

That is merely your opinion, along with a number of other ancient heretics, Loren......
Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century......http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm

The ideas of preterism were only swirling around, because Israel was ceased as a nation, then it gained momentum with Alcazar, upon the writing of his beliefs.

Preterism is stopped in its tracks and has zero credibility now, with the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

Challenging Preterism

"Preterists" believe that all Bible prophecy is history; that most of it took place in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. They suggest the Tribulation was the persecution of the saints and Nero was the antichrist.

At the heart of the doctrine is that prophecy was declared and destined to be fulfilled within the generation of Messiah Yeshua's earthly ministry. All references in the Bible to the "last days" refer to the "last days" of Israel, which means that today Israel supposedly has no more relevance than the lost continent of Atlantis. The "New Jerusalem" is the Church now and forever, according to Preterists.

Why is the above so hard to believe by futurist?

Just a couple side points, scripture does not teach a anti-Christ. This is derived by taking a few passages that are unrelated and twisting them together to come up with this teaching. But of course Sean believes everything he reads contrary to fulfilled eschatology, without actually giving fulfilled eschatology a chance simply on the basis that it does not fit what he has been taught.

I ask you what does the rebirth of the nation of Israel have to do with prophecy? Not one thing, as has been pointed out, God cannot be behind the nation for the simple reason that they have not turned to God. Two, just because a group of people of a certain nationality formed a nation does not make them any different from any other nation of people in the eyes of God.
I don't know how many times we have to quote scripture to futurist, that say the children of Abraham are no longer those of natural seed, but those of faith in Christ only. Even Jesus spoke those same words to the people of Israel during his teaching ministry.

But I think the most telling thing Sean has said, is "that is only your opinion, along with a number of preterist heretics". One last thing is when push comes to shove, religious teachers throw out the heretic word to anyone that sees things from a different perspective. I myself have become wary of anyone that accuses others of heresy just on the basis that they believe different from them.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

That is merely your opinion, along with a number of other ancient heretics, Loren......
Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century......http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm

The ideas of preterism were only swirling around, because Israel was ceased as a nation, then it gained momentum with Alcazar, upon the writing of his beliefs.

Preterism is stopped in its tracks and has zero credibility now, with the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

The fact is, the nation of Israel is the thorn in the side of preterism, and the Lord wants everyone to notice it.

Israel is a nuclear power and a daily topic in world politics.

It is an ENSIGN to the nations.....

...Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


It is an act of Almighty God and a huge blow to all preterists and their commentators over recent centuries, that turned to REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY as a means of vindicating the Bible, because of a non-existent nation of Israel, heavily written about in future prophecy.

If Israel would have reformed in the first 1000 years, preterism would be non-existent today.




Preterists can laugh at this verse all they want, and even think it is speaking about the church, rather than Israel(Replacement Theology).

The truth is, they have no other answer to this verse, except there will be, and is now, a regathering of this nation as the fulfillment of prophecy.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

The fact is, the nation of Israel is the thorn in the side of preterism, and the Lord wants everyone to notice it.

Israel is a nuclear power and a daily topic in world politics.

It is an ENSIGN to the nations.....

...Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


It is an act of Almighty God and a huge blow to all preterists and their commentators over recent centuries, that turned to REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY as a means of vindicating the Bible, because of a non-existent nation of Israel, heavily written about in future prophecy.

If Israel would have reformed in the first 1000 years, preterism would be non-existent today.

Preterists can laugh at this verse all they want, and even think it is speaking about the church, rather than Israel(Replacement Theology).

The truth is, they have no other answer to this verse, except there will be, and is now, a regathering of this nation as the fulfillment of prophecy.

Sean you don't even know what preterist think this verse is speaking about.
What is most telling, is you think this paltry group of people are an ensign of God to the world. A group of people that in 70 +- years have not even taken control of 1/3 of the land you say is promised them by God, not counting Jerusalem. The only thing they have is a UN charter declaring them a nation.
If this was an ensign of God then why are not the rest of the verses in Isaiah 11, not being fulfilled?
sa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Now I don't expect Sean to read this through, as usual, there are too many verses for his mind to keep straight. And this post is too long for him. But the fact is that two times in the history of the nation of Israel were they united as a complete nation. Under the Davidic dynasty, under David and Solomon, and when the nation returned from captivity till the time of Christ.

And this prophecy was declared by Isaiah during the Babylonian captivity. Making it fulfilled with the return from said captivity. It is history!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sean you don't even know what preterist think this verse is speaking about.
What is most telling, is you think this paltry group of people are an ensign of God to the world. A group of people that in 70 +- years have not even taken control of 1/3 of the land you say is promised them by God, not counting Jerusalem. The only thing they have is a UN charter declaring them a nation.
If this was an ensign of God then why are not the rest of the verses in Isaiah 11, not being fulfilled?
sa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Now I don't expect Sean to read this through, as usual, there are too many verses for his mind to keep straight. And this post is too long for him. But the fact is that two times in the history of the nation of Israel were they united as a complete nation. Under the Davidic dynasty, under David and Solomon, and when the nation returned from captivity till the time of Christ.

And this prophecy was declared by Isaiah during the Babylonian captivity. Making it fulfilled with the return from said captivity. It is history!

Loren, you have bumped your head if you think that destitute and dominated Israel, after the captivity with Babylon, ever controlled ANYTHING in the region.

Read the verse and look at history. They went from Babylonian rule, to Medo-Persian rule, to Grecian rule, to Roman rule.

Thank you for posting the portion of the verse. You are helping me explain future prophecy in detail

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Loren, you have bumped your head if you think that destitute and dominated Israel, after the captivity with Babylon, ever controlled ANYTHING in the region.

Read the verse and look at history. They went from Babylonian rule, to Medo-Persian rule, to Grecian rule, to Roman rule.

Thank you for posting the portion of the verse. You are helping me explain future prophecy in detail

Good, so show us future prophecy in detail

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sean you don't even know what preterist think this verse is speaking about.
What is most telling, is you think this paltry group of people are an ensign of God to the world. A group of people that in 70 +- years have not even taken control of 1/3 of the land you say is promised them by God, not counting Jerusalem. The only thing they have is a UN charter declaring them a nation.
If this was an ensign of God then why are not the rest of the verses in Isaiah 11, not being fulfilled?
sa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Now I don't expect Sean to read this through, as usual, there are too many verses for his mind to keep straight. And this post is too long for him. But the fact is that two times in the history of the nation of Israel were they united as a complete nation. Under the Davidic dynasty, under David and Solomon, and when the nation returned from captivity till the time of Christ.

And this prophecy was declared by Isaiah during the Babylonian captivity. Making it fulfilled with the return from said captivity. It is history!

Correct Isaiah is showing that Israel would return from their then Babylonian captivity. Jeremiah said concerning this captivity that it would only be for 70 years. Futurists leap frog over the content of the OT prophets books and try to make it all fit within their eschatology.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

The fact is, the nation of Israel is the thorn in the side of preterism, and the Lord wants everyone to notice it.

Israel is a nuclear power and a daily topic in world politics.

It is an ENSIGN to the nations.....

Do the delusions have no end? Israel is a nuclear power because they have a bomb, and they are a daily topic in word politics? None of which is giving God any glory!

HOW IS THIS AN ENSIGN TO THE NATIONS?

Christianity is not being spread through out the world because Israel has become a nation! It is being spread by teaching of the love of Christ and the cross.
The majority of main stream Christianity don't give one hoot or holler about prophecy.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Do the delusions have no end? Israel is a nuclear power because they have a bomb, and they are a daily topic in word politics? None of which is giving God any glory!

HOW IS THIS AN ENSIGN TO THE NATIONS?

Christianity is not being spread through out the world because Israel has become a nation! It is being spread by teaching of the love of Christ and the cross.
The majority of main stream Christianity don't give one hoot or holler about prophecy.

ensign

1.
a flag or banner, as a military or naval standard used to indicate nationality.
2.
a badge of office or authority, as heraldic arms.


Israel is a BANNER to the world today.

Now stick your head back down in the sand and shield yourself from world politics.