Universal Salvation

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;140271]CJ, the hearing that the writer is speaking about is teaching. When we look at the chapter it's speaking about those hearing the word, not just as audible sound but as instruction. When you say that eventually all will hear the word that is not true. During the first century AD their were people living in east Asia, Australia, North and South America who never hear the teachings of Christ. So please CJ explain your thought on how every single human being from Adam to now will be saved?

Romans 5:10-21
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
1John 2:2 "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world"

These verses and many more explain my faith in the greater hope of all mankind.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

CJ I totally understand the scripture verse you quoted, but you still need to rightly divide the scripture.

Romans 5:18-19

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The gift comes upon ALL men who believeth.

Mar 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."


The "he" is the "all"

Joh 3:15-16

"That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

WHOSOEVER is the ALL that confuses the universalistic teaching.

Whosoever \Who`so*ev"er\ (h[=oo]`s[-o]*[e^]v"[~e]r), pron.
Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.

Joh 3:17-18

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

No one will be saved unless they believe in the authority of the name of Jesus.

The Gospel is offered to ALL but only to all who believe.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ I totally understand the scripture verse you quoted, but you still need to rightly divide the scripture.

Romans 5:18-19

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The gift comes upon ALL men who believeth.

Mar 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."


The "he" is the "all"

Joh 3:15-16

"That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

WHOSOEVER is the ALL that confuses the universalistic teaching.

Whosoever \Who`so*ev"er\ (h[=oo]`s[-o]*[e^]v"[~e]r), pron.
Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.

Joh 3:17-18

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

No one will be saved unless they believe in the authority of the name of Jesus.

The Gospel is offered to ALL but only to all who believe.

"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2


All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2


All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart.

Could you explain "whosever believeth should NOT PERISH" means. I see the point about all being reconciled. But why the warning about perishing if all be saved in the end.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Could you explain "whosever believeth should NOT PERISH" means. I see the point about all being reconciled. But why the warning about perishing if all be saved in the end.

Jesus in addition to reconciling us to God, which literally means that we have been justified by what Jesus accomplished, Jesus said He came that we would have abundant life. However, if men refuse to enter into this life, then they lose this life, and their life on earth perishes, which means to waste.

Jesus is the door to this life, he is the narrow way and the strait gate, but few find His life, most continue in the broadway and they waste the opportunity to receive His abundant life NOW, to become His elect, that will participate in the bringing of the nations to righteous as kings and priest to our God.

The perishing will enter into the refiners fire to remove the dross and chaff, in order to enter into the kingdom. In the book of Revelation we find in the New Jerusalem leaves of the trees in that city are for the "healing of the nations (peoples) (Rev22:2), outside the city there are all kinds of sinners (Rev22:15). These sinners are invited to come, into the city, whose gates are never closed (Rev 21:25). When traditions says these sinners should be in "endless torment" the Spirit (God) and the Bride (the believers) are still saying "Come, all who are thirsty come and take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17).

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Jesus in addition to reconciling us to God, which literally means that we have been justified by what Jesus accomplished, Jesus said He came that we would have abundant life. However, if men refuse to enter into this life, then they lose this life, and their life on earth perishes, which means to waste.

Jesus is the door to this life, he is the narrow way and the strait gate, but few find His life, most continue in the broadway and they waste the opportunity to receive His abundant life NOW, to become His elect, that will participate in the bringing of the nations to righteous as kings and priest to our God.

The perishing will enter into the refiners fire to remove the dross and chaff, in order to enter into the kingdom. In the book of Revelation we find in the New Jerusalem leaves of the trees in that city are for the "healing of the nations (peoples) (Rev22:2), outside the city there are all kinds of sinners (Rev22:15). These sinners are invited to come, into the city, whose gates are never closed (Rev 21:25). When traditions says these sinners should be in "endless torment" the Spirit (God) and the Bride (the believers) are still saying "Come, all who are thirsty come and take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17).

I'll have to look at perishing closer, as far as the New Jerusalem, that is the church and now is.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Truthseeker;149145]I'll have to look at perishing closer, as far as the New Jerusalem, that is the church and now is.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is a preterist view, and I continue to study it from that position. Yet, the view that God will not end His pursuit of a man till he willingly submits to Him is more in line with the attributes of a Heavenly Father.

I recommend Thomas Talbott's book: "The Enescapable Love of God" it is available online www.upublish.com/books/talbott.htm

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2


All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart.

CJ, I really don't understand how you're getting the universal call "to" salvation with a doctrine of everyone being saved regardless of condition.

Mat 22:9

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage."

Mar 16:15

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE."

The apostles were told to preach the Gospel to every creature, but when you get to the ver next verse...

Mar 16:16

"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

CJ, only baptized believers are saved those who are not believers are damned.

Mat 22:14

"For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen."

MANY are called because the Gospel is preached to EVERY creature, but still he that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED are the ones who will make heaven their home. Those who BELIEVETH NOT will spllt hell wide open.

Rom 10:12-17

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

CJ, the scriptures are certainly showing the reader that one must be a seeker who comes to believe that Jesus is Lord and is willing to repent after they hear the preached word. The salvation is just for those who call on the name of the Lord. The "ALL" and the "WHOSOEVER" are those who believe and call on Jesus name in water baptism. Anything else will miss glory.

Faith still comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

Isa 45:22-25

"Look unto ME, and BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ASHAMED. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

The "ALL" Israel who would be SAVED are those who would "look toward GOD"
Those who would be "INCENSED" against GOD, would be "ASHAMED."

CJ the scripture qualifies itself by letting us know who the "all" and "everyone" are. All will be saved, but just the "all" who believe and are baptized and in filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.

Isa 55:1

"Ho, every one that THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."

Only those who "THIRSTETH" will be saved.

Joh 7:37-38

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Every man who is thirsty and who believes as the scriptures speak only those are the "many" who will miss hell.

Rev 22:17

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

The call is offered to "all" men, but it will be taken only by those who hear the call and are thirsty.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ, I really don't understand how you're getting the universal call "to" salvation with a doctrine of everyone being saved regardless of condition.

Mat 22:9

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage."

Mar 16:15

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE."

The apostles were told to preach the Gospel to every creature, but when you get to the ver next verse...

Mar 16:16

"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

CJ, only baptized believers are saved those who are not believers are damned.

Mat 22:14

"For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen."

MANY are called because the Gospel is preached to EVERY creature, but still he that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED are the ones who will make heaven their home. Those who BELIEVETH NOT will spllt hell wide open.

Rom 10:12-17

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

CJ, the scriptures are certainly showing the reader that one must be a seeker who comes to believe that Jesus is Lord and is willing to repent after they hear the preached word. The salvation is just for those who call on the name of the Lord. The "ALL" and the "WHOSOEVER" are those who believe and call on Jesus name in water baptism. Anything else will miss glory.

Faith still comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

Isa 45:22-25

"Look unto ME, and BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ASHAMED. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

The "ALL" Israel who would be SAVED are those who would "look toward GOD"
Those who would be "INCENSED" against GOD, would be "ASHAMED."

CJ the scripture qualifies itself by letting us know who the "all" and "everyone" are. All will be saved, but just the "all" who believe and are baptized and in filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.

Isa 55:1

"Ho, every one that THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."

Only those who "THIRSTETH" will be saved.

Joh 7:37-38

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Every man who is thirsty and who believes as the scriptures speak only those are the "many" who will miss hell.

Rev 22:17

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

The call is offered to "all" men, but it will be taken only by those who hear the call and are thirsty.

The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life. These verses speak of being saved, the question is saved from what? The answer is "the wrath of God", what is the wrath of a father, but that that will correct the wayward child. In other words, these scriptures do not indicate annihilation nor "endless torment", only that those who do not believe cannot without faith enter in. Not that they will never enter in. Those that do not enter into life will enter into purging, correction, punishment, fire, eternal fire (fire that continues until it accomplishes it purpose), lake of fire, but nowhere when properly interperted is this process without end.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life. These verses speak of being saved, the question is saved from what? The answer is "the wrath of God", what is the wrath of a father, but that that will correct the wayward child. In other words, these scriptures do not indicate annihilation nor "endless torment", only that those who do not believe cannot without faith enter in. Not that they will never enter in. Those that do not enter into life will enter into purging, correction, punishment, fire, eternal fire (fire that continues until it accomplishes it purpose), lake of fire, but nowhere when properly interperted is this process without end.

CJ, you believe in Purgatory?

"Final Purification of the Soul"

CJ, what you're presenting is based on speculation on your part to create a teaching based on philosophy.

Originally Posted by crakjak

The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life.

Yes miss out is correct, so the soul that does not go through the water way in Jesus Name will perish.

Deu 4:24-26

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon UTTERLY PERISH from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall UTTERLY BE DESTROYED."

CJ, this is very simple, get God miffed and He cooks your goose. The Jews understood this very well. What you're introducing with this teaching is that now God is a respecter of persons and changed the rules in the New Covenant. The scripture says that God doesn't change (Mal 3:6) .

Deu 28:20

"The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be DESTROYED, and until thou PERISH quickly; BECAUSE of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me."

Deuteronomy 28 is speaking of the blessings and the curse, it teaches the reader that if one loves God he will be blessed, but if one obeys not God and refuses to love God they will perish.

The Hebrew Bible teaches this principle and it is carried over in the New Testament. CJ, the Bible teachers in the first century AD were not teaching out of the KJV, NIV, they were using the Hebrew scrolls. By using the Torah they taught their converts. Jesus and His followers did not make up some new theology.


Jos 23:11-13

"Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. ELSE if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until YE PERISH from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you."

Nothing about being purified by destruction, we are purified before death not after. This whole purification after death doctrine sounds very pagan.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about the death, burial, and resurrection unto LIFE and that more abundantly. Nothing about having to die physically and get a purification after we are dead.

If I am misrepresenting something here please correct me with a little more clarity on what you believe.

Jdg 5:31

"So let all thine enemies PERISH, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years."

In the Hebrew mind set there was no coming back from perishing.

Job 4:8-9

"Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed."

In the Hebrew Bible those who were wicked perished.

Heb 10:26-31

"For if WE sin WILFULLY AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose YE, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

CJ, what you're trying to present is not scriptural but philosophical.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com