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[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

the red herring is putting this second, instead of first. One's proclamations at the altar serve no one, except possibly themselves.

That is a red flag to me. All the passages I quoted that show the FIRST work that God MUST do to anyone is the cross, and you poo-poo it to a second rate deal. The applied work of the cross is greater than anything, even the fruit we must bear. It is blasphemy to say the work of Christ's death on the cross is second and not first.

But I suppose if you think others who deny his very crucifixion can carry a cross for God to save them, then what else would the cross be than a second rate deal:

Originally Posted by Q'uran

Surah 4:157, Women...

"And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is a red flag to me. All the passages I quoted that show the FIRST work that God MUST do to anyone is the cross, and you poo-poo it to a second rate deal.

No, that is God's part, not ours. Ours is to show faith. In the cross. By your works. Not interested into delving into the dogmatical differences in Islam right now. It does not matter if they "talk wrong" in your view; if they produce fruit, they will be accepted. God judges one's heart, not one's beliefs.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

No, that is God's part, not ours. Ours is to show faith. In the cross. By your works. Not interested into delving into the dogmatical differences in Islam right now. It does not matter if they "talk wrong" in your view; if they produce fruit, they will be accepted. God judges one's heart, not one's beliefs.

You are simply not interested in learning what the bible says. They deny what the bible itself says is most vital. To deny the cross and death of Jesus for our sins is to be lost no matter how much "fruit" they bear. In fact it is not real fruit God wants if it is human goodness, because abiding in Him through his death provides the real LIFE that makes true fruit. The rest is all plastic table decoration.

You're wasting my time. That's clear.