Dialogue with a Muslim

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

He insists there is no love if we say all Muslims are lost. He doesn't think that doesn't mean we're not loving Christians. He seems to know people who made similar statements and we're cruel, so he can't see it in any other light. He'll twist or ignore any explanation to the contrary.

He doesn't love them. He wrongly believes love means ignoring what the bible teaches and lying to everyone and telling them "You are saved"

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He doesn't love them. He wrongly believes love means ignoring what the bible teaches and lying to everyone and telling them "You are saved"

i never said this, either, and in fact i have repeatedly said that this has nothing to do with Muslims, but human judgement. Don't OPs tell each other "You are saved?" Haven't i told you "You are not saved, according to Scripture?" If you have not "held out to the end," by definition you cannot be saved. We lie to people to make them feel better, so they will give us money.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never said this, either, and in fact i have repeatedly said that this has nothing to do with Muslims, but human judgement. Don't OPs tell each other "You are saved?" Haven't i told you "You are not saved, according to Scripture?" If you have not "held out to the end," by definition you cannot be saved. We lie to people to make them feel better, so they will give us money.

You missed the point...or you get it and obfuscated.

What I did was quote the word of God and pointed out what they believe. For that you accused me through implication that I do not love

So using YOUR logic you don't believe in telling others what the bible says about salvation

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So using YOUR logic you don't believe in telling others what the bible says about salvation

Bingo. If we do it's called hatred by these sorts.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You missed the point...or you get it and obfuscated.

What I did was quote the word of God and pointed out what they believe. For that you accused me through implication that I do not love

So using YOUR logic you don't believe in telling others what the bible says about salvation

certainly not in the same breath that you judge them with, no. And if you cannot hear what else the Bible says about salvation, and apply it, then what good are you to anyone else? But i would by all means suggest that you "tell" anyone who asks you, certainly. This is how you reveal yourself, if you listen. But if it is ok for you to be "huckleberry," then you must grant that to everyone you "tell."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

certainly not in the same breath that you judge them with, no. And if you cannot hear what else the Bible says about salvation, and apply it, then what good are you to anyone else? But i would by all means suggest that you "tell" anyone who asks you, certainly. This is how you reveal yourself, if you listen. But if it is ok for you to be "huckleberry," then you must grant that to everyone you "tell."

Again, all I did was quote the bible and what Islam teaches. You call that "Judging"

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Again, all I did was quote the bible and what Islam teaches. You call that "Judging"

well, i don't grasp why a Christian would want to quote what Islam teaches, anyway--it seems expressly for the purpose of making or finding a division to me. And i don't think that is "judging," but "condemning;" although the two words are used somewhat interchangeably, in poor translations. I note that when I quote the Bible (not the OP Bible; the one the rest of us uses) I am equally called to be "judging," so my best reply to that might be "what have i to do with judging (condemning) outsiders?"

You are of course free to quote whatever you like, in Scripture; and disregard whatever you like, also. Pretty much everyone does. But it seems prudent to me to also recognize some method of detecting hypocrisy, and i think resistance to Scripture outside your accepted dogma might be one. Just as anyone can claim faith in Christ, anyone can claim to be loving; but the truth is revealed when i tell you in all love that you are lost and going to hell if you don't change your heart, and i can prove it with Scripture.

While this is meant merely as an exercise, and i don't intend to do it (although i could; anyone could), the double standard becomes revealed; you would proceed purely as an admitted "huckleberry," etc., but you expect other seekers to take you seriously when you do the same to them. This is the definition for hypocrisy.

And while i definitely forgive you for this, i can't help but think that no forgiveness is desired, leading to another question, that being that if you are perfect, why do you need Christ anyway? So a situation arises--not to say that it is universal, by any means, but it is common--wherein one eats and wipes their mouths, and says they have done nothing wrong, and imagines whole stretches of time, days on end, wherein they believe they have not sinned, and yet they insist upon their definition of "faith in Christ" to the exclusion of all others; even the one that matters.

So while you certainly must judge for yourself in this matter, as everyone must, for me the line is crossed when "righteous judgement" becomes "seeking--and lo!--finding some Scripture to condemn others with," that i may move to the head of the table. Scripture judges you for this, also, even if it is in the parts you avoid, or have reasoned away. So be sure in your own mind here.

God told Moses that he would wipe out the Exodus, and still make a nation of him, and we consider that a test that Moses passed, in declining and begging for their lives. So we are shown that it is not what a group may be deserving of, as that was never in doubt.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, i don't grasp why a Christian would want to quote what Islam teaches, anyway--it seems expressly for the purpose of making or finding a division to me. And i don't think that is "judging," but "condemning;" although the two words are used somewhat interchangeably, in poor translations. I note that when I quote the Bible (not the OP Bible; the one the rest of us uses) I am equally called to be "judging," so my best reply to that might be "what have i to do with judging (condemning) outsiders?"

Beloved, please receive this in the Spirit of Christ.

If anyone compares one writing to another, it must be firstly to find common
ground. On not finding common ground, but instead finding there too many
contradictions, then one must move on to comparing the spiritual with what
the Holy Spirit has given us to enable one to judge Truth. Judging not to condemn,
but to examine ourselves.

Much of the Q'uran, it seems to me, is grounded on teachings similar to those
in Old Testament doctrine, and are not meant to affect the Church today for,
"Behold, all things are past away; all things are become new." Since the
resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the outpouring of the
Holy Spirit upon ALL flesh, the things pertaining to the Law are passed away,
and we are now governed by the Spirit of Life and not of death (we, that is,
that have received the Promise of the Spirit unto salvation).

Are we excluding anyone? Of course not: for "...He is the propitiation for our
sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world." Does that include all
faiths? Yes, it does. You see, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon ALL flesh
to cause us to believe; however, not [everyone] has believed! There are too
many individuals, denominations, and faiths that are content in their (sic)
partial truth,, their own intelligence, etc., and they will forbear.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not Be not unto your own
understanding. In ALL your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct
your paths."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, i don't grasp why a Christian would want to quote what Islam teaches, anyway--it seems expressly for the purpose of making or finding a division to me..

Didn't YOU try to tell us what Islam teaches?

It's wrong to point out what people believe...unless you are the one doing it. That's a double standard.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

You are of course free to quote whatever you like, in Scripture; and disregard whatever you like, also.

I didn't disregard anything. You accused me of doing so without proof. That makes you, not only a false accuser but judgmental anbd a hypocrite...and Im just using your logical.

When we quote the bible, you accuse us of judging, but then you quote the bible and it's ok...DOUBLE STANDARD