Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i'm seeing that it comes down to one's motivation for doing good works; the state of one's heart. If you are volunteering at the soup kitchen because that is expected of you by your peers, or even if you just feel that that is what is expected of you, then that is salvation by works (SBW), and this is not some hidden, subtle thing, even if it is hard to describe; anyone who volunteers can attest to how easy it is to recognize the people who are there because they have to be, people "doing hours." You don't even have to ask.

I disagree. Salvation by works is what people believe in when they do not regard Christ's work on the cross as solely responsible for what saves and makes us righteous. Being made righteous is what saves us, you know. So, the question is what makes us righteous.

HE was wounded for OUR transgressions. HE was bruised for OUR iniquity. By HIS stripes WE are healed. The travail of HIS soul, not our good works of love, satisfied the Father when it comes to OUR acceptance. Isaiah 53.

What does the cross play in your theology if you think a muslim can be saved without faith it even took place? THIS is the whole issue with you, Shazeep.

Whether a work is done out of love or done for fear of going to hell otherwise, it's still salvation by works. And THAT exalts self.

What is in others' hearts becomes revealed pretty quickly; it is what is in our own that is hidden. Faith without works is dead; so what is faith? Verbally agreeing with the pastor?

You're hung up on what we can know about another. It's what God sees in the heart. When the tell me what they believe, of corse I don't really know if they're genuine. But so what? They have to answer to God, not me. What faith is is trust in what God's word has said to the extent we do not require visible evidence to know it's true.

That's all.

But what need to we have faith in is the real question. And the bible plainly teaches that we need to have faith in the fact God sees Christ's death on the cross as us to be our means of salvation.

But obviously some are truly converted at the altar. But for many others, the majority i think, finding faith is a fragile process. Faith--like salvation, i think--is not an on/off thing, 'either you have faith or you don't,' even though it is often portrayed that way. Faith must be built, for most people. Faith can be lost. It can be misunderstood, and it can be misapplied.

Either you have faith or you don't (), and your works are a reflection of your faith.

I agree works reflect our faith. But works don't save and faith needs to be narrowed down as to what our faith is in.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What does the cross play in your theology if you think a muslim can be saved without faith it even took place? THIS is the whole issue with you, Shazeep.

but i never said that a Muslim could be saved, Mike; i just stated that you cannot know, and prolly don't know what "salvation" is anyway. Sure, you have some concept of it, and some works you require--because works is what they are--before you might call someone "saved," but that does not mean that God waits for a sinner to find an OP church and go through the mechanics before He judges their heart. And what is faith? Same thing. We have a conception of it, but it is different for everyone; i know OPs praying faithfully for Christ to be with them through their chemotherapy, arg. Of course i am too chicken to laugh, or even speak, when the group is asked to agree "in faith" for things like this.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Whether a work is done out of love or done for fear of going to hell otherwise, it's still salvation by works. And THAT exalts self.

funny that the process of OP salvation may be described by the 2nd one though, huh? and to make the first one true, you sure have to ignore a lot of Scripture that indicates otherwise.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but i never said that a Muslim could be saved, Mike; i just stated that you cannot know, and prolly don't know what "salvation" is anyway.

Since you claim we cannot know what salvation is, when the bible simply states it in plain terms, we are way too far apart -- further than I thought, and now I know why -- to be able to discuss. Because, if I use scripture, you'll only say it is an entrapment and I did not get the truth from such a scripture since my answer disagrees with what you believe. It makes you the arbiter of what truth is, since anything that disagrees with your view is considered misinterpreting scripture and falling into an intentional entrapment from God.

All in all, if you genuinely feel we cannot know for sure, then you would respond that I, as in me, MAY BE RIGHT. That would be the only honest conclusion from a stance that we do not know. But you've never once hinted that, so I cannot believe you are honest about this. Nothing personal, since I don't know you to let it be personal. But to those who believe the Bible cannot be taken arbitrarily, and we can believe what it says, this discussion can be better made, since otherwise you and I share no common base or foundation whatsoever, really. Too bad, since I really want to discuss how the cross fits into righteousness, because I believe the cross is more precious to me than anything we could study in the bible, and since you're the only one discussing it at all, I had hoped we could converse beyond what's it been like. But now I more clearly know why it's been like this.