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Originally Posted by shazeep
yes, i heard that and agree--which does not mean that Ali is in hell.
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I won't say where Ali is. But I will say no one can be saved through salvation by works. It's not about Ali. It's about doctrine.
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And yes, i am not denying that there are (also) passages in the Qur'an that are troubling. But all it takes is one Muslim who listens to God instead of Muslim dogma to make you wrong.
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You miss my point. They would not be muslim in that case, would they? If one muslim rejects that statement in the koran and hears from God, that person will no longer be Muslim.
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More importantly, if you cannot even reconcile with those using the same Book as you, what is the point of looking for division elsewhere? It strikes me as a divorced person attempting to be a marriage counselor, wadr.
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It's not a matter of using the same book. It's a matter of obeying what it says. And when it comes to people who claim the cross alone grants them righteousness and saves, then I will never say they are lost. I don't care what denomination they belong to.
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You are judging dogma--and a foreign dogma at that, for which you have no cultural context--when God plainly states that He does not judge like you do, and examines the heart of a person.
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Wait a minute. What? That is a plain statement and needs no cultural background to understand. Either the Lord was actually crucified, which work is necessary for our salvation, or he was not. And it's only obfuscating the simple and basic point to say otherwise.
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So you can say "i am not condemning" all you like, but when you follow that with "All Catholics are lost," or any other label that is not "evil-doers" or "sinners" or whatever, when you do not know, you are rejecting God's Grace, and you will be judged to be sanctimonious and a hypocrite, and i don't mean in some future judgement, which Scripture may also not always mean either. You are being sanctimonious and hypocritical right now, and have been judged.
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I am condemning no one. The bible and His word has already condemned anyone, as Jesus said. You just like shooting the messenger because you don;t like the message God is conveying. It's not about mulsims or catholics. It's about believing the work fo the cross alone saves and grants us righteousness.
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So you would have to prove that a Muslim believes that, and then you would have to prove that it means the same thing to them that it does to you, and then you would have to prove that this condemns them in God's eyes, and somewhere along the line you would have to note that you are in a sense living in sin, searching for others' sins, trying to define sin for a foreigner, and showing yourself to be a hypocrite in the process.
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No one has to prove anything. Muslims are told to believe the Koran's statement that claims Jesus did not even die. No one can slither out of that direct point no matter how hard they try.
Man, you seem to be like someone who reads the words, "It's not black," and will do anything to excuse someone who says it claims it's white.
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Might some or most Catholics or Muslims be lost? Certainly, but that is hardly the point.
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I have been saying all along that is not the point. You don't read that though.
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You yourself are not yet saved, and i can prove it with Scripture;
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You read and do not understand what you read because you do not read it with intention to actually get something from the writing.
I said MANY TIMES that in one sense NO ONE IS SAVED YET. But as The New Testament plainly states, in another sense PEOPLE ALIVE ARE CONSIDERED SAVED. And yet in a third sense WE ARE BEING SAVED.
You dismiss any verse that disagrees with your position that no one is saved, like the ones that definitely stay living people are indeed saved, and pawn them off as though God were trying to trip someone up that was dishonest.
SHALL BE SAVED:
Romans 5:9 KJV Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(but that is not talking about saved from sin, but from wrath).
ALREADY SAVED:
1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:15 KJV For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
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but you are being sanctimonious and judgemental, and the fact that you are so sure--when a poll will tell you that your brethren feel otherwise--is another strong indication, and the final nail might be that you have come all the way to my position, essentially, with "sects don't matter, the heart matters," even if you are still trying to assert "All Catholics are lost," which after all is just a different sect, so i'm not sure how to even make sense of that.
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I already said it's not a matter of whether or not all catholics are lost. lol
But you read NOTHING I say. So...
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So it is you who is lost--and i am not condemning you, of course, because i read this in Scripture; Judge not, lest you be judged et al, tra-la.
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I never judged.
God already judged by His word.
Try again, Shazeep.
And by the way, if I did judge, which I did not, Jesus never said I am lost. He never said "Judge not lest ye be lost." he said, Judge not lest ye be judged." What did he mean by that? He meant that a person cannot judge another person in a particular issue that the first person has a problem with as well. But you have twisted that passage, with the whole unbelieving world, since they all say the same huge error you just said, and think it means "Judge not lest ye be lost."
But I already explained that MORE THAN ONCE and you just refuse to change your opinion on that verse.
My doctrine leads to me to understand everyone who denies the work of the cross as the sole source for righteousness and salvation is lost.
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