True or False: Grace is harder than Law

[shazeep]

yes, i understand that, as you keep coming back to it, so to put my reply a different way this time, i don't believe you (or them) when you say that these people understand something that they are "holding in their heart," and you have no evidence that the phrase is not being used just like abra-cadabra, because faith without works is dead, as dead as saying "I believe the Golden Rule" while asserting that "Everyone is lost who does not believe like i do." The first statement is obviously lip-service when the second statement is seen to be from the heart.

With men this is impossible. With God all things are possible:

Note the difference in these two statements:
Rom 7:19....For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Php 4:13....I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

ya, but you have once again gratuitously chopped off my quote to imply that i am saying Christ is not necessary, when what i am saying is "follow Christ." Which, according to you, cannot be done, hence this circular discussion.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, i understand that, as you keep coming back to it, so to put my reply a different way this time, i don't believe you (or them) when you say that these people understand something that they are "holding in their heart," and you have no evidence that the phrase is not being used just like abra-cadabra,

My point is is that whether people use it as a magic incantation or not, the POINT of those who KNOW what they are saying and actually PLEAD THE BLOOD in reality, are indeed living in grace.

I know people use it as a magic word and do not know what it means. But you tarred everyone who uses it with the same brush that they don't know what they're talking about, and they know nothing of grace. And that is not true.

because faith without works is dead, as dead as saying "I believe the Golden Rule" while asserting that "Everyone is lost who does not believe like i do."

It has nothing to do with believing as I believe, in response to this subtle slur against me again. It has to do with believing what the bible says. And every time you repeat this distortion I will correct it by saying it again--- it's believing what the bible teaches that determines our salvation or not. And to say a person thinks others are lost is a person who does not practice the golden rule is the same worldly, dark and unbelieving spirit (that I explained in the poll thread I started about salvation by the golden rule) the world holds and is proclaiming loudly in recent years when it sees us say homosexuality is a sin and they therefore call us hateful.

You see, the opinion you are proposing is the world's opinion. It is the opinion that nobody can love people who are yet in sin. And that wicked like has to be exposed. It's the lie that says we cannot love homosexuals if they accuse them of being sinners. It's the lie that says nobody can have that much love to die for people who are considered sinners. The whole basis of Christianity is GOD LOVED US WHILE WE WERE SINNERS.

Your proposition cannot accept that. To say one is a sinner is the same thing as saying one is lost. It's just change of words describing the same situation. The view you espouse claims we cannot believe someone is lost and love them. That is why you accuse me of hatred. You cannot imagine people loving the very ones whom they claim are sinners. So the golden rule is violated by me in your eyes. But those are the eyes of the spirit of the world.

Stephen pointed into the faces of people whom he accused were wicked and sinful. Your opinion would accuse Stephen of violating the golden rule.

Act 7:51-53....Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. ..(52)....Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: ..(53)....Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

You would cry this man breaks the golden rule! He called people WICKED!he called them murderers.

But did Stephen hate them because he accused them of murder and wickedness?

His death boggles the minds of those who are of the world as much as Christ's did.

Act 7:59-60....And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. ..(60)....And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen prayed God not lay their sin of murder to their charge. He loved them that much! But yet he called them wicked and murderers.

Your philosophy cannot allow for that any more than it can allow for someone to say people are lost and in sin. You cannot comprehend love in a person who claims another is in sin. God claimed people were in sin and loved them! Stephen did!

And what about Jesus:

Joh 8:4....They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Joh 8:11....She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Go and "sin no more"? He accused her of being a sinner! But he was not condemning her when he told her to sin no more. Your philosophy cannot accept that. Oh, it's in the bible so you have to say it's right. But when it comes down to someone else doing the same thing and accusing people of sin, and therefore saying they are sinners, and therefore saying they are lost, you throw that truth away.

It is NOT condemnation to say someone is lost and is a sinner. It is condemnation to intentional demean and belittle them. But when Jesus told her to sin no more, he acknowledged she was lost and a sinner. But he was not condemning.

Your philosophy says a person is condemning if they say someone is sinning and lost.

The first statement is obviously lip-service when the second statement is seen to be from the heart.

You hypocritically say those who claim others are lost for not believing the same as the proclaimers, because your belief is that one must BELIEVE LIKE YOU DO that they are not lost. And you, in turn, claim those who think differently than you are lost. So, while you accuse people of being lost because they think others are lost if they don't agree with what they believe, you think the same way! You claim I am lost because I disagree with what you believe about how is lost!

You say I judge people when I say they're lost. Meanwhile you judged me for the same thing you did yourself by saying I am lost!

So, this is why your words have lost all value to any serious Bible believer reading them on this forum.

But the truth is that EVERYONE thinks people must believe what they believe or else they're lost. Otherwise, NOBODY would be doing what they think would SAVE THEMSELVES.

But the truth is the bible plainly makes statements your philosophy cannot handle, and so you claim it's not saying what we claim it is. And when asked what it does mean, you cannot say. You say God put those words there to trip people up. Nice excuse.

ya, but you have once again gratuitously chopped off my quote to imply that i am saying Christ is not necessary, when what i am saying is "follow Christ." Which, according to you, cannot be done, hence this circular discussion.

It's obvious how you distort a picture. The following of Jesus is doing what Jesus did. And what did Jesus do? He lived a life described by Himself as this:

Joh 5:19....Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 14:10....Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 15:5....I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And to prove that is what Jesus meant...

Joh 6:57....As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

There is no vine/branch relationship in your crossless gospel. There is no reliance of God for righteousness in your salvation by works, but only self-righteousness achieved without any cross of Jesus being necessary.

So once again...

Mat 19:21....Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mat 19:26....But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Following Jesus is living a life of reliance on HIS LIFE for the ability to do anything God is impressed with, as the branch does nothing if worth without the vine's life, and that that is the only way the rich young man could do what would otherwise be impossible.

This antichrist spirit of the lack of the cross and an ANTI or ALTERNATE way to Life is exposed for what it is.

The disciples knew they could not leave Jesus and needed HIS LIFE!

Mat 19:27-28....Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? ..(28)....And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Following Him is truly leaning on Him as He leaned on the Father.

Joh 6:57....As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

The same chapter says to get life by his blood and flesh. That means LIFE is gained by Christ being our very lives... his blood and flesh refer to what was shed and broken ON THE CROSS. it ALL goes back tot he cross no matter how much you try to remove the cross from it's absolute place in salvation.