Steve Pixler Selling Cornerstone Church!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

One God or Trinity?

Water Baptism in Jesus name or hell?

Receiving the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of tongues?

None of which are Biblical criteria for salvation.
(A thread I started a while back)

Originally Posted by Jason B

It is common for oneness Pentecostals to argue in favor of the initial evidence doctrine, which simply states that anyone who truly receives the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues at the time of the baptism. It is common to link Romans 8:9 to this doctrine "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Thus the conclusion is that if someone does not speak in tongues they have not received the Holy Spirit, they don't belong to Christ, and as such they are lost and facing an eternity in hell if they don't repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Ghost with this initial evidence of speaking in tongues. We're pretty much all familiar with this doctrine, I'm just restating the obvious for point of reference for this thread.

But the problem of course is that there just isn't any solid scriptural foundation for this doctrine because the Bible never says that someone has to speak in tongues to be saved, nor does it ever say that speaking in tongues is the one universal initial evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost.

See if there were just one scripture that said "except you speak in tongues you cannot be saved" or "we know the people who are saved because they have spoken in tongues" then the argument would be considerably stronger if not altogether settled. But of course there is NO scripture that teaches such, at best the doctrine is built on stringing some scriptures together, making assumptions, and arriving at a soteriological theory at best.

None of this so far is particularly new here on AFF, but what has me pondering tonight is why do oneness Pentecostals go into full denial mode when the shoe is on the other foot? For example, if there were scriptures that plainly said that if someone does X, Y, and/or Z they are saved or can know they are saved, why are those scriptures ignored? Why is the plain language of the inspired, infallible, inerrant, authoritative, living, Word of God not good enough for some oneness Pentecostals? How can someone really defend a teaching which insists that unless someone has spoken in tongues they cannot be saved, in the face of plain and basic scriptures?

Here's where I'm going: This weekend I've been studying through 1 John again, and charted some things out I'd like to share with regard to this topic. I admit freely this is not all that scholarly, and I'm not trying to impress, so if you want to knock my study feel free to do so, but my question to oneness Pentecostals who affirm speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation is: "How can the initial evidence doctrine stand in light of these scriptures?"

First, the book of 1 John was written for 5 reasons"
1)For Christian fellowship (1:3)
2)that the believers joy may be full (1:4)
3)they the believers sin not (2:1)
4)that they might believe on the name of the Son of God (5:13)
5)that they might know they have eternal life (5:13)


In first John there are a variety of "tests' given so that we can know who the true believers are and who the false teachers/false believers are. These tests are along 3 lines
Social=have to do with our relationships with others
Theological=have to do with what we believe
Moral=have to do with how we live.

In the order they appear in the book, here are scriptures which tell us HOW WE CAN KNOW WE ARE SAVED:

Assurance of Salvation:
1 John 1:7,9
1 John 2:3,5-6
1 John 2:10
1 John 2:17
1 John 2:23b
1 John 2:29
1 John 3:6,7
1 John 3:9
1 John 3:14
1 John 3:17-23
1 John 3:24
1 John 4:2
1 John 4:4,6-7
1 John 4:11-16,21
1 John 5:1-5
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:11-13
1 John 5:18-19

Evidence we are not saved:
1 John 1:6
1 John 1:8,10
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:9,11
1 John 2:15-17a
1 John 2:22-23a
1 John 3:6,8
1 John 3:10
1 John 3:14b-15
1 John 4:3
1 John 4:5,6,8
1 John 4:20
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:12b

I was going to put all the scriptures in here but it was too time consuming for tonight (its already past 11pm here). So let me summarize:

1)We can know that we are saved if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ, that He came in the flesh, made atonement for our sins, and is God. These are the theological tests.
2)We can know that we are saved if we have love for fellow Christians (in the modern sense this would mean not only those of our own organization, that is in fact the opposite, a party spirit), love for all people, and genuine concern and compassion for those who are in need. In a word-if our lives are defined by love for others, it is a strong evidence that we belong to God. These are the social tests.
3)We can know that we are saved if we are trying to live Christ like lives, defined by holiness, godliness, righteousness, and a keeping of God's commandments. If our lives reflect Christ we can know that we are saved. These are the moral tests.

No where in 1 John does he specify (or even mention) speaking in tongues. It is not even a factor. But we are told very specifically:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Most of what you said merits no further response, but a couple things I will address:


Simply put, "calling a spade a spade" is simply a cover for passing judgment on other Christians. There is no doubt a warning to be heeded, and that warning is the call to repentance from sin and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ. This is the gospel.

This is the Gospel but your old pastor teaches that you must be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Yes? No?

Originally Posted by Jason B

This is what you guys miss with all your fear mongering.

More love Jason? For someone who has no beef, you sure know how to mute the reason portion of your soliloquy?

Originally Posted by Jason B

It's not that ya'll are totally devoid of the gospel but that ya'll take the gospel and add a wardrobe to it, and can't distinguish the one from the other, believing that it is all one unified whole.

So how much of the Gospel message can be added to and still make heaven your home? Come on, no adding or taking away? Proverb 30:6 sort of makes it crystal that God doesn't want you putting words in His mouth. So, tell me again, how much of this can you tamper with and still get a "welcome my good and FAITHFUL servant?"

Originally Posted by Jason B

This is error. will it result in damnation? God knows.

Originally Posted by Jason B

Legalism is condemned strongly in Galatians, it is certainly dangerous--BUT even when at least some of the Galatians were carried away with legalism, Paul spoke to them as brothers, though sternly rebuking their foolishness and calling them to repentance.

Really? Paul rebuked the Galatians with the word ANATHEMA!

Bro, what did you get yourself into?

Originally Posted by Jason B

All I'm going to do is preach Christ crucified and that God commands all men everywhere to repent for He has set a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness.

Really? Mind telling me what does that look like? Since I'm Captain Caveman you need to spoon feed? Right?

Originally Posted by Jason B

I do not understand how you equate telling people about the just wrath of a righteous God with "the sword does no harm." You obviously have no idea what I believe, only what you make me to believe, so you can knock down a strawman. Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ, and that only in repentance from sin (as opposed to mere confession).

My hope is built on nothing less that Jesus blood and righteousness.

Bro, no one can know what you believe if everything that says Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom. Also you say your are a preacher, but then tell those in error if they don't see the "truth" you hold they will find out in the end? Jason, they can say the samething back at you. My lands, where did you go?

Originally Posted by Jason B

Nah. It's obvious a shift is taking place within the movement, and that God is drawing a large number of people out of the movement into a more complete Christianity.

Really? What does that look like Jason? What does this so called new movement believe? Oh, and please be specific, and detail your answers, so I too may know who they are.

Originally Posted by Jason B

I don't pity those who "stayed behind",

Yes you do.

Originally Posted by Jason B

God works through people in his own time. My personal journey was over 8 years,

8 years and you already knew more than your pastor, and everyone else around you. Bravo!

Originally Posted by Jason B

but I never realized I was leaving until the very end. I have no doubt that God is at work in the lives of those who belong to Him. One of the great freedoms I've found is that I don't have to play God anymore. He will work out His own purposes according to the council of His own will, without need for my suggestions on how, when, and why.

Sorry bro, but that is a bunch of baloney.

I don't buy the above since your post to me about the holier than thou haters you outlined for me.

All the above might make you feel good about yourself after you typed it all out and posted. Still your opinion is well noted. You believe the Apostolic Jesus name movement is dying deformity a tumor which needs to be cut out. Or radiated until it shrinks to obscurity. Bro, you are standing akimbo while you believe you are on the cusp of some new movement.

I await your description of this "new" movement, the doctrines, the names, and places where it is found.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

None of which are Biblical criteria for salvation.
(A thread I started a while back)

So you can believe that God is a pantheon and Jesus was one of His avatars, and still make heaven your home?

Eight years?

Eight years with a Bible, and a dictionary led you????

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

how much of this can you tamper with and still get a "welcome my good and FAITHFUL servant?"

Water baptism in Jesus name is not salvational?

Was it a suggestion?

Did Peter not know anything else to say to the family of Cornelius? Therefore he was mistaken when he commanded them to be baptized?

Jason, the Bible must be understood as a whole thought, not as fractured verses placed together. In the book of Acts we are shown the works of the apostles, in the epistles we have issues explained. Water baptism in Jesus name is not just some ancient formality which was done away with as the apostles grew over the years.

So, please tell me how much can you add and subtract and still miss the burning abyss?

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sister Alvear, anyone ever leave your group and join Igreja Pentecostal Deus É Amor?

No not that I know about....now we have thousands of families scattered across Brazil someone that I have no knowledge of may have...but no preacher or worker. Deus e' Amor is a trinity group that mostly is prophecy (?) and revelations...however they hold a pretty strict outward standard.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

No not that I know about....now we have thousands of families scattered across Brazil someone that I have no knowledge of may have...but no preacher or worker. Deus e' Amor is a trinity group that mostly is prophecy (?) and revelations...however they hold a pretty strict outward standard.

We have their churches up here in Pompano, and in Miami.

We also have a lot of these veil wearing, violin playing, men kissing men, Brazilians who are Pentecostals. They baptize in Jesus name but are three godders, were started by an Italian missionary, and everyone seems to know how to play an instrument.

Their organization's name escapes me at the moment, but I'll ask again and post it to you. Have you had any of your ministers leave an go Trinitarian?

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

We have their churches up here in Pompano, and in Miami.

We also have a lot of these veil wearing, violin playing, men kissing men, Brazilians who are Pentecostals. They baptize in Jesus name but are three godders, were started by an Italian missionary, and everyone seems to know how to play an instrument.

Their organization's name escapes me at the moment, but I'll ask again and post it to you. Have you had any of your ministers leave an go Trinitarian?

That church is called Congregação Cristã. Very strong in south Brazil but not as strong here in the northeast. They mostly play vocal instruments here. Never seen them play guitars or have drums. They do not greet other Christians with the typical christian greetings.

[Sister Alvear]

At the moment I cannot think of any ministers that have ever left us that were a part of this ministry and went Trinitarian...In fact most that leave start their own little oneness work. They love to be the "president" of something.

[Sister Alvear]

Really we have not had a lot to leave us. Our people have been very loyal as a whole but like all groups we have had some that left. Brother Alvear is a very easy person to work with and very understanding. He has lots of patience...(even more than I have) He is an awesome leader however not the "commander" type...he is gentle and walks ahead and the people follow. Our son Raul Jr is more the commander type...Our son Arlei (the one in the jungle ministry) is a mixture of the two and our son Michael is "the big bear" on the outside...but so tender when you get to know him. We do have one son that took Brother Pixler's route and works with another group in south Brazil and two other sons one here in the north and one in the south that work in the music departments. Two daughters that live in the south that their husbands are local ministers but not pastors and a daughter that lives here with us that was married to an American but now divorced as he left her and is backslide but she and her little girls are faithful and she helps me with the street children....We do have one son that is backslidden please pray for him. His name is Eddie. He once pastored a large church here but was hurt by people. They are others that lived in our home growing up that pastor churches in south Brazil (where we lived many years) God has been very good to us and we are deeply thankful. (well this is a family report! ha...) We have one American boy that lived with us that is also a missionary. In fact he is now the vice president of the work here. We raised another little boy or helped raise him we took in both he and his mother... he was just real tiny...today he is grown and feeling called to the ministry.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

That church is called Congregação Cristã. Very strong in south Brazil but not as strong here in the northeast. They mostly play vocal instruments here. Never seen them play guitars or have drums. They do not greet other Christians with the typical christian greetings.

Yep, no drums, no guitars, orchestra music and greeting with a big ole kiss

A few times they had attempted to greet ole Brother B in that manner. Yet, I had to "kindly' give them a nice grab to the shoulder and an extended handshake. I understand the Latin culture's kissing an all but you all pray for me.