More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Agreed, but in this context it can be argued that the modesty it is refering to is about not being elaborately decorated rather than about showing skin. Then people will argue how much skin can be shown. What are the lines according to scripture?

Why not allow each body to make that decision. If it isn't specified in Scripture, then we can defer to the churches to decide on their own. Certainly less skin will be covered in tropical locations than perhaps cooler environments. At some point we have to relinquish CONTROL and allow leaders (who are supposed to listen to the Spirit) guide their flocks.

Bingo. that is correct. I believe that is why we have prospered to where we are today as a nation.

Amen.

I hardly consider slavery a cultural norm. Only the elite had slaves and that is very small number of the population. The horror stories of slavery are all that gets highlighted. I understand that many of the slaves where treated better then they would if they had remained in the disease and food scarce country they came from. We are paying for those sins at present in all the racial wars we are now having in our country.

That's debatable. But I value those considerations.

Which is probably going stronger today than ever.

I was only speaking of legality. Even though prostitution is probably going strong, it's illegal in more states than not.

The government was not so involved in people's homes back then. It never has been acceptable to abuse and molest your family. You say it was common, probably no more common than today. People that do those things don't ussually go around telling people about it. I don't consider this a cultural o.k.

I'm just saying it was just as present as today. And it was far less talked about. So, it might have been even more common than we think. Things seem to fester in the dark.

Sin has always exsisted I never said it didn't. These things you are naming where not the normal and they were shunned by most of society in the early 20th century. You are correct people covered these things up. Why because it was culturally unacceptable rather than acceptable.

I don't know, like beating your wife. It was perfectly legal and men talked about it. The term, "Rule of Thumb" comes from the legal concept that a man could beat his wife with a switch as long as it wasn't wider than his thumb.

Our society has never been perfect but at least people had more of a moral compass.

I'm not convinced. Because during those romanticized eras we had child labor, Sufferage, institutionalized hate and racism, lynchings, rape shaming, etc. And it was pretty out in the open in many communities. I think that because of people being more open about sexuality in our day things are just more obvious. All those social evils I mentioned, along with the secret sexual escapades were all present in those eras.

I don't know where you come up with that seeing there's probably not any reliable stats. on hetero vs. homo before the 6o's.

So you think we're suffering from a wage of gay people? lol

Most gays who are coming out have been gay for decades.

Overall I would say I have had zero homosexual converts. Some recent lesbians we invited to church told us that we don't want them at our church. It has become accepted as normal and the church is viewed as the problem by a fast growing minority number in our society. This sinful nation coming out the closet is going to find the judgement of God rather then the mercy if they don't repent.

True. I've had a little luck with family and those connections through them. But in general, most are convinced that we hate them.

What about righteous Lot being vexed by the people of Sodom and Gommorrow. I don't know about you, but I am not enjoying the direction this country is going in.

I'm not necessarily "enjoying" it. However, I know it is going to get far worse. So I'm thankful that it's only this bad right now.

One word, REPENTANCE. If people will turn to God he will them, but people coming out with a pride about their sin is not the way to recieve their healing. I want to be clear, I try ministor to alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals. I care for the souls of these people, and so does God.But, if they don't turn from their sin they will not receive the restoration you are speaking of.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet. I'm not convinced we're going to get these people to entirely turn from their sin so easily. I focus on godly sorrow. If they can have humility and a godly sorrow, I believe God's grace can move in their lives.

The hardened "proud" gays... they can't come to God if they are proud of their sin.

Your philosophy that we should just love the sin right out of these people isn't how it works. We are to love people, but we should view the sin as abomination. IOW, the sin should disguest us. Instead many supposedly Christians are entertained by people's sin on t.v. to the point they are no longer even stirred by sin. Its no big deal.

If I let other people's sin disgust me, I'd be a man most miserable. I have to let go and let them be themselves, pray for them, and love them. They aren't going to change just because I'm disgusted and talking about my invisible friend being disgusted. In my opinion, that's just as arrogant and sinful as their pride. Think about it. Can you hear them? "Oh no! Aquila is disgusted! He says that God is disgusted too. I guess I better change my ways!" I don't see how that strategy could be a winning strategy at all. LOL

But loving them, giving them respect, and genuinely caring for them, now that will make them say, "Wait, you're a Christian? Why are you different? I had a Christian spit at me the other day." Remember, this isn't a matter of convincing people. It's not an intellectual argument. No wonder so many Christians are so frustrated. LOL The Spirit has to draw those whom God has chosen to draw. There is the inner calling of the Spirit at work in their hearts, and there is the outer call of our message. When the two come together, the sinner is confronted with a deep and stirring call to be saved that resonates in their heart. This isn't an "argument", and it isn't about intellectually convincing them of what we believe. Sometimes I wait until I sense the Spirit at work before I'll even share the Gospel with a sinner. I'll confess, when I do wait for the Spirit to confirm that He's at work there are better results.

I think the push for acceptance has nothing to do with fixing their pain. Its about making others agree with their sin.

I'm only speaking from my experience with the gay community. I've mentioned my niece-in-law. She's a lesbian and married to another woman. She's been disowned by her dad, her mom is dead, her church basically told her not to come back until she wasn't attracted to women, her friends freaked out when she came out of the closet. She lost a lot for just confessing what her sexual preference was. It made her very bitter and hurt for a long time. And it often manifested as anger. I've worked with her and she was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, she prayed and prayed for deliverance. She was suicidal. I told her to take a deep breath and just be herself. The church wasn't very friendly towards her and so I directed her to a more liberal church in our community (they have a charismatic wing). She's doing better now emotionally. She fell in love and got married and is at least praying and counting herself as a Christian, which I know many would mock, but I'd rather see this than see her dead. I do believe that all it takes is a little talk with Jesus. She might live her life attending this liberal church in town while married to this woman she's with... and before her death have a heart to heart with Jesus and be saved yet so as by fire. But as long as she's alive, God can move in her life as He desires. That's good enough for me.

?????? You think that person can be a homosexual and be o.k. with God??????

I think we're ALL wretched, sinful, vile, creatures that offend and provoke God's holiness. None of us are any worse than the rest of us. It's only through pure grace provided by the atonement and Christ's propitiatory work on the cross that gives any of us a snowball's chance in Hades.

Are you saying people can continue in their sins and be full of God's Spirit.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet.

The preaching of the cross involves repentance. The only way preaching against sin drives people away is if they reject the God who calls them to repent.

If a repentant person has turned from all sin, then I have to confess... I haven't met a "repentant" Christian yet. Repentance is the word, "metanoia". It literally means a "change of mind", now by implication one's behavior should improve. But repentance doesn't demand "sinlessness". An old time preacher once told me, "Christians aren't sinless, but Christians sin less." Christians aren't perfect. We're counted as being perfect in Christ alone.

This political correctness isn't saving souls. Instead it is just allowing a sinfull world to be blended in with the church.

I guess I have yet to actually encounter a church. Because I haven't seen a church with sinless Christians in it yet.

The churches I've known are filled with rather imperfect Christians and hypocrites who would want to convince you that they're sinless. When I worked for LexisNexis at their computer helpdesk in Miamisburg, Ohio, I had plenty of church members as me to fix their computers. Let me just say this... I never saw a single computer that didn't have some sin on it. These brothers (and yes sisters) would shout and Amen the preacher about how "reprobate" gay people are and how gays can be saved unless they cease from their sin... but they were getting freaky on their computers at night. I've caught saints smoking, drinking, and even wearing clothes they shouldn't be wearing on vacation. LOL Let's get real. None of us are sinless and none of us are perfect. Oh, I convinced myself that I was sinless once. But looking back on it, I was a legalistic monster. Today, I'd rather be real and let the chips fall where they will, I'll do my best out of my love for Jesus, but I'm depending entirely upon grace. Because I KNOW I'm doomed if I pretend to be perfect when I'm not.

So, if imperfect people like me and so many others can go to church and depend upon God's grace... why can't a gay person?

Keep preaching repentance.

Amen. But if repentance means sinless perfection... I haven't seen it yet among any Christian (Apostolic or not) in my 28 years of being born again. Shoot, I'll confess. I'm not sinlessly perfect. I try to be the best version of me I can be as I desperately try to imitate Jesus, but I'm no where near as Holy as Jesus or even, Evang.Benincasa. lol

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Why not allow each body to make that decision. If it isn't specified in Scripture, then we can defer to the churches to decide on their own. Certainly less skin will be covered in tropical locations than perhaps cooler environments. At some point we have to relinquish CONTROL and allow leaders (who are supposed to listen to the Spirit) guide their flocks.



Amen.



That's debatable. But I value those considerations.



I was only speaking of legality. Even though prostitution is probably going strong, it's illegal in more states than not.



I'm just saying it was just as present as today. And it was far less talked about. So, it might have been even more common than we think. Things seem to fester in the dark.



I don't know, like beating your wife. It was perfectly legal and men talked about it. The term, "Rule of Thumb" comes from the legal concept that a man could beat his wife with a switch as long as it wasn't wider than his thumb.



I'm not convinced. Because during those romanticized eras we had child labor, Sufferage, institutionalized hate and racism, lynchings, rape shaming, etc. And it was pretty out in the open in many communities. I think that because of people being more open about sexuality in our day things are just more obvious. All those social evils I mentioned, along with the secret sexual escapades were all present in those eras.



So you think we're suffering from a wage of gay people? lol

Most gays who are coming out have been gay for decades.



True. I've had a little luck with family and those connections through them. But in general, most are convinced that we hate them.



I'm not necessarily "enjoying" it. However, I know it is going to get far worse. So I'm thankful that it's only this bad right now.



I haven't met a sinless Christian yet. I'm not convinced we're going to get these people to entirely turn from their sin so easily. I focus on godly sorrow. If they can have humility and a godly sorrow, I believe God's grace can move in their lives.

The hardened "proud" gays... they can't come to God if they are proud of their sin.



If I let other people's sin disgust me, I'd be a man most miserable. I have to let go and let them be themselves, pray for them, and love them. They aren't going to change just because I'm disgusted and talking about my invisible friend being disgusted. In my opinion, that's just as arrogant and sinful as their pride. Think about it. Can you hear them? "Oh no! Aquila is disgusted! He says that God is disgusted too. I guess I better change my ways!" I don't see how that strategy could be a winning strategy at all. LOL

But loving them, giving them respect, and genuinely caring for them, now that will make them say, "Wait, you're a Christian? Why are you different? I had a Christian spit at me the other day." Remember, this isn't a matter of convincing people. It's not an intellectual argument. No wonder so many Christians are so frustrated. LOL The Spirit has to draw those whom God has chosen to draw. There is the inner calling of the Spirit at work in their hearts, and there is the outer call of our message. When the two come together, the sinner is confronted with a deep and stirring call to be saved that resonates in their heart. This isn't an "argument", and it isn't about intellectually convincing them of what we believe. Sometimes I wait until I sense the Spirit at work before I'll even share the Gospel with a sinner. I'll confess, when I do wait for the Spirit to confirm that He's at work there are better results.



I'm only speaking from my experience with the gay community. I've mentioned my niece-in-law. She's a lesbian and married to another woman. She's been disowned by her dad, her mom is dead, her church basically told her not to come back until she wasn't attracted to women, her friends freaked out when she came out of the closet. She lost a lot for just confessing what her sexual preference was. It made her very bitter and hurt for a long time. And it often manifested as anger. I've worked with her and she was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, she prayed and prayed for deliverance. She was suicidal. I told her to take a deep breath and just be herself. The church wasn't very friendly towards her and so I directed her to a more liberal church in our community (they have a charismatic wing). She's doing better now emotionally. She fell in love and got married and is at least praying and counting herself as a Christian, which I know many would mock, but I'd rather see this than see her dead. I do believe that all it takes is a little talk with Jesus. She might live her life attending this liberal church in town while married to this woman she's with... and before her death have a heart to heart with Jesus and be saved yet so as by fire. But as long as she's alive, God can move in her life as He desires. That's good enough for me.



I think we're ALL wretched, sinful, vile, creatures that offend and provoke God's holiness. None of us are any worse than the rest of us. It's only through pure grace provided by the atonement and Christ's propitiatory work on the cross that gives any of us a snowball's chance in Hades.



I haven't met a sinless Christian yet.



If a repentant person has turned from all sin, then I have to confess... I haven't met a "repentant" Christian yet. Repentance is the word, "metanoia". It literally means a "change of mind", now by implication one's behavior should improve. But repentance doesn't demand "sinlessness". An old time preacher once told me, "Christians aren't sinless, but Christians sin less." Christians aren't perfect. We're counted as being perfect in Christ alone.



I guess I have yet to actually encounter a church. Because I haven't seen a church with sinless Christians in it yet.

The churches I've known are filled with rather imperfect Christians and hypocrites who would want to convince you that they're sinless. When I worked for LexisNexis at their computer helpdesk in Miamisburg, Ohio, I had plenty of church members as me to fix their computers. Let me just say this... I never saw a single computer that didn't have some sin on it. These brothers (and yes sisters) would shout and Amen the preacher about how "reprobate" gay people are and how gays can be saved unless they cease from their sin... but they were getting freaky on their computers at night. I've caught saints smoking, drinking, and even wearing clothes they shouldn't be wearing on vacation. LOL Let's get real. None of us are sinless and none of us are perfect. Oh, I convinced myself that I was sinless once. But looking back on it, I was a legalistic monster. Today, I'd rather be real and let the chips fall where they will, I'll do my best out of my love for Jesus, but I'm depending entirely upon grace. Because I KNOW I'm doomed if I pretend to be perfect when I'm not.

So, if imperfect people like me and so many others can go to church and depend upon God's grace... why can't a gay person?



Amen. But if repentance means sinless perfection... I haven't seen it yet among any Christian (Apostolic or not) in my 28 years of being born again. Shoot, I'll confess. I'm not sinlessly perfect. I try to be the best version of me I can be as I desperately try to imitate Jesus, but I'm no where near as Holy as Jesus or even, Evang.Benincasa. lol

I agree that Christians may sometimes sin. If that be they are to repent.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin we are to go to God like at the beginning (maybe even re-baptism), repenting of that sin and relinquishing the control it has back over us to God. If a Christian is a slave to sin then sin is their master and not God. If you are a practicing homosexual and are bound to that sin you are slave to it. You cannot have two masters.

You are saying that a person can live for God while willfully disobeying him. That is an oxy moron; to live for him, but disobey him. If you are disobeying God you are not living for Him. I mean no offence, but your lesbian family is lost. I am glad they are not suicidal, but if they think they are saved they have a false sense of hope.

God does not change. If God tolerates our sins then he is going to owe some apologies to Sodom and Gommorrow (obviousely that is not the case). God is no respecter of persons, if He punishes one people for their sins he will another.

1 Cor. 6:9-- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is pretty clear.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree that Christians may sometimes sin. If that be they are to repent.



If we sin we are to go to God like at the beginning (maybe even re-baptism), repenting of that sin and relinquishing the control it has back over us to God. If a Christian is a slave to sin then sin is their master and not God. If you are a practicing homosexual and are bound to that sin you are slave to it. You cannot have two masters.

You are saying that a person can live for God while willfully disobeying him. That is an oxy moron; to live for him, but disobey him. If you are disobeying God you are not living for Him. I mean no offence, but your lesbian family is lost. I am glad they are not suicidal, but if they think they are saved they have a false sense of hope.

God does not change. If God tolerates our sins then he is going to owe some apologies to Sodom and Gommorrow (obviousely that is not the case). God is no respecter of persons, if He punishes one people for their sins he will another.



This is pretty clear.

Believe it or not, we agree on quite a bit, though we appear to disagree on some things too. I'll elaborate in another post. But first, I have an honest question. Sin is sin, rather once in a while or more frequently. Guilty is guilty, whether one sins once or a million times.

I have an honest question:

Are you sinless? Yes or no?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Believe it or not, we agree on quite a bit, though we appear to disagree on some things too. I'll elaborate in another post. But first, I have an honest question. Sin is sin, rather once in a while or more frequently. Guilty is guilty, whether one sins once or a million times.

I have an honest question:

Are you sinless? Yes or no?

Are you sinless?

What is sinless?

What is remission of sins? When does someone have remission of sins?

Will people still be sinning in heaven?

Do you still continually sin?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you sinless?

With regards to my spirit, my inner man, yes.

The mind, or soul, is renewed through the the Word, but struggles from time to time with carnal thinking.

My flesh, or body, it is still fallen sinful flesh. It's still under the curse. It's subject to cravings, genetic predispositions, hormones, sickness, disease, aging, and death.

What is sinless?

Being void of sinful inclinations, desires, and/actions.

What is remission of sins? When does someone have remission of sins?

It is the forgiveness of sin. Initially it begins with repentance and is completed at baptism. But it can also be attained subsequently through confession.

Will people still be sinning in heaven?

No.

Do you still continually sin?

I do my best to live a loving Christlike life. But, I can often feel the desire to sin in my flesh. My mind can be rather carnal if I neglect prayer and meditation. And I'd like to say that I never give in, but at times I do.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

With regards to my spirit, my inner man, yes.

The mind, or soul, is renewed through the the Word, but struggles from time to time with carnal thinking.

My flesh, or body, it is still fallen sinful flesh. It's still under the curse. It's subject to cravings, genetic predispositions, hormones, sickness, disease, aging, and death.

So, you are spiritually bipolar? Sort of like an ecclesiastical Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde? Jesus telling Judeans without the Holy Ghost they needed to not look at women and lust after them. Because that would be already considered adultery by Jesus. Yet, what Jesus was proposing was just some sort of poetic theatrics, because people are saved spiritually, but since they're epidermal tissue, blood, bone, hair, DNA, then that part is sinful? Are you gnostic? Then why on earth did Jesus say that if you even looked with lust at a woman you were committing the act of adultery? Was it because your spirit wasn't sinning, but your DNA was sinning? Do you even know what the term flesh means? It doesn't mean your fingernails, tears, and snot. It is your natural thinking process. Outside of Jesus' influence.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Being void of sinful inclinations, desires, and/actions.



It is the forgiveness of sin. Initially it begins with repentance and is completed at baptism. But it can also be attained subsequently through confession.



No.



I do my best to live a loving Christlike life. But, I can often feel the desire to sin in my flesh. My mind can be rather carnal if I neglect prayer and meditation. And I'd like to say that I never give in, but at times I do.

You are still the guy who sends his wife into the house to dress to your specifications. Bro, doing your best is doing this religiously through your own human discipline. This isn't some Shaolin Temple were we train ourselves to be good, to be Christlike. That's Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. That my boy, is legalism. No matter if you are as barefoot as Jethro, wearing your Old Navy pineapple pattern shorts. If you think any of this is your own human discipline you are a legalist as any Chabad Lubavitcher Rebbe. Again, this is where you liberals drop the watermelon. While you stick your tongues out at the Ultra Conservatives. You guys are straining like a bowel movement passing cider blocks. trying to be Christlike while your inner man wants to cave someone's head in. You have to bite the bullet and through grit teeth, say, "I love you BROTHER!"

Sorry, but all that inner man sweet Jesus is a bunch of malarky if you have a mind full of porn.

You either got a good dose of Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues, or you are just going through the motions. Just waiting to implode and explode all over the pews.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, you are spiritually bipolar? Sort of like an ecclesiastical Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde? Jesus telling Judeans without the Holy Ghost they needed to not look at women and lust after them. Because that would be already considered adultery by Jesus. Yet, what Jesus was proposing was just some sort of poetic theatrics, because people are saved spiritually, but since they're epidermal tissue, blood, bone, hair, DNA, then that part is sinful? Are you gnostic? Then why on earth did Jesus say that if you even looked with lust at a woman you were committing the act of adultery? Was it because your spirit wasn't sinning, but your DNA was sinning? Do you even know what the term flesh means? It doesn't mean your fingernails, tears, and snot. It is your natural thinking process. Outside of Jesus' influence.


You are still the guy who sends his wife into the house to dress to your specifications. Bro, doing your best is doing this religiously through your own human discipline. This isn't some Shaolin Temple were we train ourselves to be good, to be Christlike. That's Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. That my boy, is legalism. No matter if you are as barefoot as Jethro, wearing your Old Navy pineapple pattern shorts. If you think any of this is your own human discipline you are a legalist as any Chabad Lubavitcher Rebbe. Again, this is where you liberals drop the watermelon. While you stick your tongues out at the Ultra Conservatives. You guys are straining like a bowel movement passing cider blocks. trying to be Christlike while your inner man wants to cave someone's head in. You have to bite the bullet and through grit teeth, say, "I love you BROTHER!"

Sorry, but all that inner man sweet Jesus is a bunch of malarky if you have a mind full of porn.

You either got a good dose of Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues, or you are just going through the motions. Just waiting to implode and explode all over the pews.

Well, sounds like you have me all figured out, don't you? So, what's your verdict? Am I lost, backslidden, condemned where I stand? Or, might you claim I never received the Holy Ghost, so I was never saved to begin with? What is it?

Or could it be that something I said was so honest, so authentic, so in tune with your own experience, that it confronts you with your own hypocrisy, so you have no other recourse but to lash out with personal attacks? Do such attacks make you feel like a better man? Does your church give you extra points and pats on the back for saying these things?

Or, perhaps I've got this all wrong. Maybe your purpose is to demonstrate how wonderfully sinless and perfect you are. Maybe your purpose is to be such a fine example of holiness that I'll just fall at your feet in adoration.

I've been in this 28 years. I have no reason to stand here and pretend to be sinless, and I won't. I know who died for me. I know I'm an undeserving wretch, even on my best days. If I do get to heaven, I'm not worthy to enter even if it were to only shine your shoes.

I believe in the doctrine of grace. I believe that God loves you, even though you set out to purposefully hurt and offend me. And I'll gladly take what you have to offer. Because, I know that as long as you're scourging me wide open...you're not browbeating some poor soul who might be on the edge of losing their faith completely. I don't think you're lost. In fact, the grace that has saved me in my admitted imperfections, saves you in yours. You're only doing this because you're religion hasn't taught you better.

I believe in the doctrines of redemption.

1. Corporate Election (God's choice to save whosoever will enter into the body of Christ)
2. Predestination (God's predetermined glory for the church)
3. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the Laws demands for the church)
4. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against sin for the church)
5. Prevenient Grace (the Holy Spirit's drawing of the lost to Christ Jesus through both an inner and an outer calling)
6. Conversion (repentance & water baptism)
7. Justification (imputed righteousness received by faith at Conversion)
8. Regeneration (being born of the Spirit as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit)
9. Adoption (membership in God's family through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit received at Regeneration)
10. Sanctification (growing into Christlikeness by taking part in the divine nature through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)
11. Death (the cessation of physical life after which one enters the intermediate state wherein the soul is present with the Lord in Heaven awaiting resurrection & glorification)
12. Resurrection & Glorification (receiving a resurrected and glorified body fashioned perfectly after the image of Christ)

And, it's all by grace.