More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Agreed, but in this context it can be argued that the modesty it is refering to is about not being elaborately decorated rather than about showing skin. Then people will argue how much skin can be shown. What are the lines according to scripture?

Why not allow each body to make that decision. If it isn't specified in Scripture, then we can defer to the churches to decide on their own. Certainly less skin will be covered in tropical locations than perhaps cooler environments. At some point we have to relinquish CONTROL and allow leaders (who are supposed to listen to the Spirit) guide their flocks.

Bingo. that is correct. I believe that is why we have prospered to where we are today as a nation.

Amen.

I hardly consider slavery a cultural norm. Only the elite had slaves and that is very small number of the population. The horror stories of slavery are all that gets highlighted. I understand that many of the slaves where treated better then they would if they had remained in the disease and food scarce country they came from. We are paying for those sins at present in all the racial wars we are now having in our country.

That's debatable. But I value those considerations.

Which is probably going stronger today than ever.

I was only speaking of legality. Even though prostitution is probably going strong, it's illegal in more states than not.

The government was not so involved in people's homes back then. It never has been acceptable to abuse and molest your family. You say it was common, probably no more common than today. People that do those things don't ussually go around telling people about it. I don't consider this a cultural o.k.

I'm just saying it was just as present as today. And it was far less talked about. So, it might have been even more common than we think. Things seem to fester in the dark.

Sin has always exsisted I never said it didn't. These things you are naming where not the normal and they were shunned by most of society in the early 20th century. You are correct people covered these things up. Why because it was culturally unacceptable rather than acceptable.

I don't know, like beating your wife. It was perfectly legal and men talked about it. The term, "Rule of Thumb" comes from the legal concept that a man could beat his wife with a switch as long as it wasn't wider than his thumb.

Our society has never been perfect but at least people had more of a moral compass.

I'm not convinced. Because during those romanticized eras we had child labor, Sufferage, institutionalized hate and racism, lynchings, rape shaming, etc. And it was pretty out in the open in many communities. I think that because of people being more open about sexuality in our day things are just more obvious. All those social evils I mentioned, along with the secret sexual escapades were all present in those eras.

I don't know where you come up with that seeing there's probably not any reliable stats. on hetero vs. homo before the 6o's.

So you think we're suffering from a wage of gay people? lol

Most gays who are coming out have been gay for decades.

Overall I would say I have had zero homosexual converts. Some recent lesbians we invited to church told us that we don't want them at our church. It has become accepted as normal and the church is viewed as the problem by a fast growing minority number in our society. This sinful nation coming out the closet is going to find the judgement of God rather then the mercy if they don't repent.

True. I've had a little luck with family and those connections through them. But in general, most are convinced that we hate them.

What about righteous Lot being vexed by the people of Sodom and Gommorrow. I don't know about you, but I am not enjoying the direction this country is going in.

I'm not necessarily "enjoying" it. However, I know it is going to get far worse. So I'm thankful that it's only this bad right now.

One word, REPENTANCE. If people will turn to God he will them, but people coming out with a pride about their sin is not the way to recieve their healing. I want to be clear, I try ministor to alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals. I care for the souls of these people, and so does God.But, if they don't turn from their sin they will not receive the restoration you are speaking of.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet. I'm not convinced we're going to get these people to entirely turn from their sin so easily. I focus on godly sorrow. If they can have humility and a godly sorrow, I believe God's grace can move in their lives.

The hardened "proud" gays... they can't come to God if they are proud of their sin.

Your philosophy that we should just love the sin right out of these people isn't how it works. We are to love people, but we should view the sin as abomination. IOW, the sin should disguest us. Instead many supposedly Christians are entertained by people's sin on t.v. to the point they are no longer even stirred by sin. Its no big deal.

If I let other people's sin disgust me, I'd be a man most miserable. I have to let go and let them be themselves, pray for them, and love them. They aren't going to change just because I'm disgusted and talking about my invisible friend being disgusted. In my opinion, that's just as arrogant and sinful as their pride. Think about it. Can you hear them? "Oh no! Aquila is disgusted! He says that God is disgusted too. I guess I better change my ways!" I don't see how that strategy could be a winning strategy at all. LOL

But loving them, giving them respect, and genuinely caring for them, now that will make them say, "Wait, you're a Christian? Why are you different? I had a Christian spit at me the other day." Remember, this isn't a matter of convincing people. It's not an intellectual argument. No wonder so many Christians are so frustrated. LOL The Spirit has to draw those whom God has chosen to draw. There is the inner calling of the Spirit at work in their hearts, and there is the outer call of our message. When the two come together, the sinner is confronted with a deep and stirring call to be saved that resonates in their heart. This isn't an "argument", and it isn't about intellectually convincing them of what we believe. Sometimes I wait until I sense the Spirit at work before I'll even share the Gospel with a sinner. I'll confess, when I do wait for the Spirit to confirm that He's at work there are better results.

I think the push for acceptance has nothing to do with fixing their pain. Its about making others agree with their sin.

I'm only speaking from my experience with the gay community. I've mentioned my niece-in-law. She's a lesbian and married to another woman. She's been disowned by her dad, her mom is dead, her church basically told her not to come back until she wasn't attracted to women, her friends freaked out when she came out of the closet. She lost a lot for just confessing what her sexual preference was. It made her very bitter and hurt for a long time. And it often manifested as anger. I've worked with her and she was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, she prayed and prayed for deliverance. She was suicidal. I told her to take a deep breath and just be herself. The church wasn't very friendly towards her and so I directed her to a more liberal church in our community (they have a charismatic wing). She's doing better now emotionally. She fell in love and got married and is at least praying and counting herself as a Christian, which I know many would mock, but I'd rather see this than see her dead. I do believe that all it takes is a little talk with Jesus. She might live her life attending this liberal church in town while married to this woman she's with... and before her death have a heart to heart with Jesus and be saved yet so as by fire. But as long as she's alive, God can move in her life as He desires. That's good enough for me.

?????? You think that person can be a homosexual and be o.k. with God??????

I think we're ALL wretched, sinful, vile, creatures that offend and provoke God's holiness. None of us are any worse than the rest of us. It's only through pure grace provided by the atonement and Christ's propitiatory work on the cross that gives any of us a snowball's chance in Hades.

Are you saying people can continue in their sins and be full of God's Spirit.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet.

The preaching of the cross involves repentance. The only way preaching against sin drives people away is if they reject the God who calls them to repent.

If a repentant person has turned from all sin, then I have to confess... I haven't met a "repentant" Christian yet. Repentance is the word, "metanoia". It literally means a "change of mind", now by implication one's behavior should improve. But repentance doesn't demand "sinlessness". An old time preacher once told me, "Christians aren't sinless, but Christians sin less." Christians aren't perfect. We're counted as being perfect in Christ alone.

This political correctness isn't saving souls. Instead it is just allowing a sinfull world to be blended in with the church.

I guess I have yet to actually encounter a church. Because I haven't seen a church with sinless Christians in it yet.

The churches I've known are filled with rather imperfect Christians and hypocrites who would want to convince you that they're sinless. When I worked for LexisNexis at their computer helpdesk in Miamisburg, Ohio, I had plenty of church members as me to fix their computers. Let me just say this... I never saw a single computer that didn't have some sin on it. These brothers (and yes sisters) would shout and Amen the preacher about how "reprobate" gay people are and how gays can be saved unless they cease from their sin... but they were getting freaky on their computers at night. I've caught saints smoking, drinking, and even wearing clothes they shouldn't be wearing on vacation. LOL Let's get real. None of us are sinless and none of us are perfect. Oh, I convinced myself that I was sinless once. But looking back on it, I was a legalistic monster. Today, I'd rather be real and let the chips fall where they will, I'll do my best out of my love for Jesus, but I'm depending entirely upon grace. Because I KNOW I'm doomed if I pretend to be perfect when I'm not.

So, if imperfect people like me and so many others can go to church and depend upon God's grace... why can't a gay person?

Keep preaching repentance.

Amen. But if repentance means sinless perfection... I haven't seen it yet among any Christian (Apostolic or not) in my 28 years of being born again. Shoot, I'll confess. I'm not sinlessly perfect. I try to be the best version of me I can be as I desperately try to imitate Jesus, but I'm no where near as Holy as Jesus or even, Evang.Benincasa. lol