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[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I thumbs upped it because it's the Scripture, and no matter what it is true. Even if I find myself not being able to live up to it or fully understand it all. I've tried trying. I've tried trying harder. I've done the legalism thing (you've beat up me thoroughly with it already, I get it). I've tried not trying at all and simply relying on some "new nature" to guide me. I've tried praying until I just sit and stare not knowing what else to confess, to repent of, or to do. I've tried to just focus on loving God and loving others, and still that wasn't enough. And... so far, nothing has worked for me. I might get as far as a day or two without sinning and then, I'm flat on my face again. Rather it be anger, lust, covetousness, etc... in a day or two, I'm back on the ropes. I think I hear the Spirit whispering "grace", but nobody believes in that sloppy agape, even I can't grasp it. I mean, why would God pardon me when I can't stop sinning? Sometimes I want to scream into the heavens, "I hate what I am, I didn't ask to be born. If this is some kind of sick joke, can you please just hurry up with the punchline? You win. I'm tired. I don't want to hurt anyone... I just want to be... happy."

I've tried ultra-cons, I've tried liberal churches, I've tried so called moderate churches, I've rolled with the Reformed, charismatics, etc. Every last one of them was a joke. All of them were equally "trying" whatever it was they thought was the answer (some even trying hard to not try! lol)... but all were failing miserably.

I listen to all the sinless holiness talk... but NO ONE has yet to step up to the plate who is actually living the sinless life the Bible demands and show me how to get this right for a change.

I've tied a knot at the end of the rope and I'm hanging on for dear life. But, I'll be honest... sometimes just the thought of walking away from it all allows me to breath easier.

I'm not being a jerk here guys. I feel like crying. But I've cried over this for so many years, and it hasn't helped yet.

I feel like I'm drowning. And the closer I feel that I get to God in prayer, the more evident it becomes that I'm a wretch. An absolute failure. It's the most depressing feeling, I can't even describe it. It's like an utter hopelessness. I've excelled in so many areas of my life most would think I have nothing to fear or that could make me feel like a failure. But this does. And this is what has always mattered most to me. Everything else from military service to what I do for a living now doesn't mean anything to me compared to this. But this is the one thing I feel God dangling in front of me... and I've discovered, I can't ever reach it, grasp it, and attain it.

I need help. I need someone who is actually living this thing to show me how it is done. Broad theological discourses are often like communism. They sound good on paper... but when applied... it still doesn't work. Every mentor and pastor I've had was flawed. I'm not going to bash them and list the things I discovered in their closets, but they weren't living it. They were great people, but they didn't even have the victory the Bible speaks of.

I'm hurting, I'm tired, and I really want to get this with all my heart... but I'm feeling really, really, discouraged. I dig politics because it isn't so close to home for me. We can debate economics and politics all day and I can ignore the pain I feel spiritually. But the reality is... I can't bring myself to give up... but if I could, I would.

I'm no victim. I'm to blame for my condition. No devil made me like this. No preacher made me this way. But I have yet to find the secret to all of this.

I really feel hopeless today.

Mt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart:and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Aquilla, I never said that you or anyone else will attain perfection. It is God's grace that we must live by. Everytime that a person falls they must repent to God and get up again. The thing is God is not fooled by false repentance. People that are repentant don't live in homosexuality. I understand that we all struggle in the flesh, but struggling in the flesh is not habitually sinning.

As far as all the imperfect men in your past. Everyone is human. We get angry, we say things offensive, we covet things we see, etc. Those are inward things that each of us contend with. Before the Lord saved me I didn't even recognize those things working on me, but now I am aware of my opposition. You said, you felt miserable inside because of the carnal nature. Evidently something inside of you desires more.

How can a person live in habitual sin with the Holy Ghost always crying out to them NO. I understand falling at moments, but the moment that you convince yourself that you are ok in your sin. God will not always stive with man.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Aquilla, I never said that you or anyone else will attain perfection.

Matthew 5:48 is Jesus making a statement that we are to be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect. The Greek is τέλειος,, which means to come to the end, complete, finished, full age, matured to adulthood. We do a great disservice to people when we try to make excuses for the words of Jesus Christ. This is not achieved by human discipline. Romans 12:2 instructs us that we are to be renewed in our mind, a metamorphosis as a caterpillar transforms into something other than a worm. The writer of Romans tells us to prove, show evidence which is good, and acceptable, the perfect, will of God. In James 3:2 the writer explains that in many things we offend everyone. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, also able to restrain the entire body. the writer of 2 Corinthians 7:1 points out clearly that since we have God's promises Having therefore these promises, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of carnality and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. The writer of 1 John 3:3 says the exact same thing, but tells you who you are to be like. The writer of 1 John 3:3 tells us to purify yourself as Jesus Christ is pure. Romans 12:1-2 tells us how this is achieved by making your body a live sacrifice unto God, which is what you were bought for by Jesus Christ. To serve Him totally, completely, that we are not our own. Not being conformed to this world: but transformed by the renewing of your mind, that may show evidence what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. The writer of Hebrews 5:13-14 explains why this is needful, "For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn't know how to do what is right. Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

Yet, instead of encouraging the saint of God to go forward, we tell them that no one can get it together. That everyone is banged up, and will continue to enter the wheel of Samsara until we are reincarnated in the next life? I know, no Apostolic says that, but that is what the Hindu Guru sells his devotees. No, Jesus Christ is writing this epistle to be read of all men, He is the author and FINISHER of our faith. What He started He will complete. We do our part, and He does His part. Jesus wouldn't tell people who hand't even received the Holy Ghost baptism yet, to be as perfect as the FATHER, if He had no clue how to get them there.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It is God's grace that we must live by. Everytime that a person falls they must repent to God and get up again. The thing is God is not fooled by false repentance. People that are repentant don't live in homosexuality. I understand that we all struggle in the flesh, but struggling in the flesh is not habitually sinning.

Exactly, but show them the word that they can be mature. That they will not always be in spiritual diapers. That they can be weened from nursing and go on to strong meat. Encourage to go forward, to get up and stay up not through human discipline but through Jesus Christ transforming our minds to full maturity.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

As far as all the imperfect men in your past. Everyone is human. We get angry, we say things offensive, we covet things we see, etc. Those are inward things that each of us contend with. Before the Lord saved me I didn't even recognize those things working on me, but now I am aware of my opposition. You said, you felt miserable inside because of the carnal nature. Evidently something inside of you desires more.

How can a person live in habitual sin with the Holy Ghost always crying out to them NO. I understand falling at moments, but the moment that you convince yourself that you are ok in your sin. God will not always strive with man.

It is not about convincing ourselves, it is about the work of the cross, the power of Jesus Christ. Our yielding to Him as a student, a servant, ready to take what He is telling us to do. Yes, God will not always strive with man, but He gave us an advocate who has defended us through His work. Now we have full access to fully put on the mind of Christ. To walk in the light as He is in the light.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1489886]

Matthew 5:48 is Jesus making a statement that we are to be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect. The Greek is τέλειος,, which means to come to the end, complete, finished, full age, matured to adulthood.

If you read all of the verses before vs 48 you get the details of what God expects of us in being perfect. One thing you and I both know is that Jesus audience was already a bunch of moral failures. Perfection was already gone out the window, but through the redemption that Christ bought we could go on to being perfect.

We do a great disservice to people when we try to make excuses for the words of Jesus Christ. This is not achieved by human discipline.

I don't make excuses for the words of Jesus at least not intentionally. I sincerely don't think that what Jesus meant in mathew 5 about being perfect and what comes to mind when we think perfect are the same thing. When you and I say to someone you must be perfect to serve God they automatically think to being flawless. I blew that the first day of being born again.

We are made perfect only through Christ. I recently come across the scripture about laying up treassures in heaven. The verses go on to say if your eye be single the whole body will full of light. It took some thought, what in the world does it mean for your eye to be single. Then I stumbled across the phrase singlenss of heart which means being totally devoted to something. Single is also whole or even completely. If our eye be single is in other words our sight is totally or wholly fixed on God and His righteousness then we wil be full of light.

This is exactly the perfection that God wants us to come to. We put all our pocus on God and not on things of this world. We don't focus on faults and failures, but we keep our eyes on Jesus.

Romans 12:2 instructs us that we are to be renewed in our mind, a metamorphosis as a caterpillar transforms into something other than a worm. The writer of Romans tells us to prove, show evidence which is good, and acceptable, the perfect, will of God. In James 3:2 the writer explains that in many things we offend everyone. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, also able to restrain the entire body. the writer of 2 Corinthians 7:1 points out clearly that since we have God's promises Having therefore these promises, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of carnality and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. The writer of 1 John 3:3 says the exact same thing, but tells you who you are to be like. The writer of 1 John 3:3 tells us to purify yourself as Jesus Christ is pure. Romans 12:1-2 tells us how this is achieved by making your body a live sacrifice unto God, which is what you were bought for by Jesus Christ. To serve Him totally, completely, that we are not our own. Not being conformed to this world: but transformed by the renewing of your mind, that may show evidence what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. The writer of Hebrews 5:13-14 explains why this is needful, "For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn't know how to do what is right. Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

I don't disagree with you on any of this nor do I try to get converts ready to fail in advance. I spoke to someone today addicted to drugs. My admonition is that God will set you free. I always add that a person must desire that freedom. God is not going to steal possession of our bodies and live our lives for us though.

Yet, instead of encouraging the saint of God to go forward, we tell them that no one can get it together. That everyone is banged up, and will continue to enter the wheel of Samsara until we are reincarnated in the next life? I know, no Apostolic says that, but that is what the Hindu Guru sells his devotees. No, Jesus Christ is writing this epistle to be read of all men, He is the author and FINISHER of our faith. What He started He will complete. We do our part, and He does His part. Jesus wouldn't tell people who hand't even received the Holy Ghost baptism yet, to be as perfect as the FATHER, if He had no clue how to get them there.

Sounds like a gloomy conversion. When I came to God I was classified and alcholic by carey counseling. I had lost my license for DUI, Evading Arrest, Wreckless Driving. I had watched my young life go down the drain and was contemplating suicide. I came to church as a favor to my grandma. All Christians where hypocrites so I had no desire to be there (right). I had a chip on my shoulder bigger then I was.

Something got hold of me that day that changed my life. It changed the way I walk, talk, dress, act, etc.... 16 years later and I am preaching the gospel to others baptizing others in the name of Jesus. I am not at all teaching people that they can't do better. I was addressing Aquilla, about mistakes. I have made mistakes in the past 16 years, but that doesn't change who that I am. A child of God. As a child of God I don't go around expecting to make mistakes, but as it happens I am not going to let the enemy torment me over it I am going to repent and by the grace of God overcome.

Exactly, but show them the word that they can be mature. That they will not always be in spiritual diapers. That they can be weened from nursing and go on to strong meat. Encourage to go forward, to get up and stay up not through human discipline but through Jesus Christ transforming our minds to full maturity.

Absolutely, but you if have watched a baby begin walk. It is going to take some spills, that is all in learning. That doesn't stop them from getting up. Being wholly made up is not about never fallling it is about never loosing sight of God. This is not the same as living in disobedience.

It is not about convincing ourselves, it is about the work of the cross, the power of Jesus Christ. Our yielding to Him as a student, a servant, ready to take what He is telling us to do. Yes, God will not always strive with man, but He gave us an advocate who has defended us through His work. Now we have full access to fully put on the mind of Christ. To walk in the light as He is in the light

I assure you that I agree. My whole point in the comment about not attaining perfection was in regards to the inward struggle that we all have to face at times. We are made perfect through Christ alone, and not by our own merits. Although, people who live in willfuly sin are not in Christ and have not even begun the journey.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If you read all of the verses before vs 48 you get the details of what God expects of us in being perfect. One thing you and I both know is that Jesus audience was already a bunch of moral failures. Perfection was already gone out the window, but through the redemption that Christ bought we could go on to being perfect.

I gave you the Greek. I explained the Greek. The Greek word means "mature" in the context Jesus is using it. Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteously blameless. The writer of Luke goes out of his way to use two words δίκαιος interpreted by the KJV translators as the English word righteous. The Greek δίκαιος means just, right, correct, observant of custom, orderly, civilized within the law, exact, specific, real, and genuine. But that word isn't the kicker, the kicker is the word used in the following sentence. the Greek word ἄμεμπτοι the only way one can properly interpret this word is with this definition to be above reproach because you are morally pure. So, with that if Zachariah and Elizabeth were standing in front of Jesus when he said "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" he would of pointed over to them? Why? Because the prophets tell us that God was only coming from a remnant. The "all Israel" that would be saved was the believing remnant which Paul was a part. But, let's return to the rest of Luke 1:6.
What was Zachariah and Elizabeth morally pure concerning? πορευόμενοι ἐν πάσαις ταῖς ἐντολαῖς καὶ δικαιώμασιν τοῦ κυρίου ἄμεμπτοι. Which is Walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS. God didn't send the Angel Gabriel to the biggest loser priest God could find. This was a brother who was doing right, he was morally pure, and even when he questioned the testimony of the holy messenger he still didn't get his blameless status taken away. He was corrected by being made mute. At times when people have bad situations in their lives (like Job) we have a tendency to judge the person as being bad in the situation instead of the bad situation being judged for what it is. So, Zachariah and Elizabeth morally pure, careful to obey all of the Lord's commandments and regulations without fault.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't make excuses for the words of Jesus at least not intentionally.

I'm sorry that I posted that, I know YOU don't make excuses for Jesus' words.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I sincerely don't think that what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:48 about being perfect and what comes to mind when we think perfect are the same thing.

Sorry, again. I felt that I adequately explained the use of the Greek τέλειος, which when used in Jesus' context it means completely matured. I'm a master mechanic, I don't make the same errors I did, when I was starting out. To be able to called "master" in any vocation one needs to achieve completeness, achieving the highest grade. Where excuses are made are made through emotions which end up excusing the words of Christ. Jimmy, can't get it together, he keeps messing up. Because when we get down to the nucleus of the problem. Is that Jimmy won't deny his own human will. He pretty much loves certain things which are a part of his human nature. Therefore when he is required to do a good repair, he takes the low road. Instead of changing your spark plugs, he leaves your old plugs in. Because he knows you won't notice. Because he changed the wires and cap. He didn't change your plugs because on your model the plugs are really hard to reach. Furthermore, on your type of motor the plugs may break, and the mechanic must use a specialty tool to remove them. Jimmy changes the oil, but just wipes off the filter. He knows you won't notice, or ever find out. Unless you happen to end up with another mechanic. These aren't just an issue of human nature, but an issue of character flaws. In Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech he said this, "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." Content of character is what this is all about. Jesus comes inside us and gives us a character change. He leads and guides us as a good master mechanic. He is the service writer on the job and gives us our repair order on what we need to fix. It is all about to us whether we want to do a good job, even if no one notices. Or a bad job and hope that no one notices. Puritans and Classical Calvinists held a way more higher standard then they do now. But, the Puritan ethic in this country was greatly modified. Churches which claim to be Calvinists became hyper Calvinists, and morphed into saved in sin, stay in sin. While other followers never really focused on that and soldiered on to be really exceptionally good citizens. The remainder who have huge character flaws struggle. Yet, instead of pointing the strugglers in the proper direction to pray through, while you pray with them, and support them with book, chapter, and verse that they can fly higher. That they can rebuild carburetors, build an addition to a home all by themselves, with the utmost skill and pride in their work. They are told the opposite. They are told that we are all lousy mechanics. That you couldn't get a quality rebuild or even your house painted properly for all the Gumbo in Louisiana. In the immortal words of Brother Erick Peterson, as he turned to me and said "elder, people get off track, but they always have full option to get back on track." That's it, free will, free will to do a whole host of things, good, bad, evil, despicable, or sweet as Louisiana banana pudding. Perfect is mature, starting out a babe drinking milk, going on to a son, and then coming to the place where you are a father.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

When you and I say to someone you must be perfect to serve God they automatically think to being flawless. I blew that the first day of being born again.

You see, I believe that is one of the problems in Churchanity. While other religions understand that a neophyte knows nothing, they don't require anything from a neophyte. It is like you taking a job as an assistant in shop and being asked to build a wheel. They give you a bag of spokes, nipples, a spoke wrench, a rim, and hub. They walk you over to the truing stand and ask you to be done in 15 minutes? Good luck with that. Neophytes in the majority of other religions are not expected to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Some people are different, and they get converted and they are steady as she goes. That is why in the immortal words of Brother Ronnie Sexton "Jesus works with us on a case to case basis" Also I don't say to someone they must be perfect. The Bible is the one who said that. Not me, I just show the plain scripture. If someone wants to slip, slide, then coil around verses in a grandiose attempt to make someone feel better in sin. Then that's on them. We are to be able to live a overcomers life, that is a pretty good thing. If some joker is expected to be a craftsmen in woodworking, and an airplane mechanic, but as far as having an awesome character they can be off and on? Not a good look.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We are made perfect only through Christ.

We are "made" perfect though Christ as He being our example, our teacher, our father. We are to walk in the light as He is in the light, we are to purify ourselves as He is pure. Not through human discipline, but being full of the Holy Ghost which moves in us if we don't resit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I recently come across the scripture about laying up treasures in heaven. The verses go on to say if your eye be single the whole body will full of light. It took some thought, what in the world does it mean for your eye to be single. Then I stumbled across the phrase singleness of heart which means being totally devoted to something. Single is also whole or even completely. If our eye be single is in other words our sight is totally or wholly fixed on God and His righteousness then we will be full of light.

Yes, of course. Like anything else you focus on singularly you will become.
That happens in all forms of the human experience. That is why Jesus speaks of having two master, you would love one (and become like that master) or love the other (and become like that master) You cannot love God and Lucre.
We are to put on Christ, not like a costume with a mask, that is what the word ὑποκριτής actor which Jesus used to describe the religious Judeans of His day.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

This is exactly the perfection that God wants us to come to. We put all our focus on God and not on things of this world. We don't focus on faults and failures, but we keep our eyes on Jesus.

Awesome, you are going from infant nursing on the sincere colostrum, to a father who dines on Porterhouse with mushrooms, and onions. Faults and failures become less and less as you grow up. You aren't the same as you were when you were 6, or when you were 16, shouldn't be acting like your 16 when you are 60, right? Jesus wasn't being cryptic, or mysterious. He used real life examples to teach us how to live. People of other religions tend to look at American Churchanity shake their heads and wonder what anyone gets out of it? The saved a sinner but stay a sinner is more like AA, than the Gospel.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't disagree with you on any of this nor do I try to get converts ready to fail in advance. I spoke to someone today addicted to drugs. My admonition is that God will set you free. I always add that a person must desire that freedom. God is not going to steal possession of our bodies and live our lives for us though.

Amen. Yet, Churchanity teaches the drug addict to get off of drugs because the whole of society admonishes that. Yet, once Jimmy is off the freebase, reefer, or booze, he is still struggling. Because the church wants him to work all this out through human discipline. They don't teach him that it is possible to receive the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. Or even if they do, they only encourage him to do it once. I walked into a church to preach, and I always hit the prayer room before i preach. I walked on the platform and opened the prayer room door and found buckets, mops, brooms, costumes, props for a play, and a worn out artificial tree. walked off the platform and knelt in the pew. Praying through may be an apostolicism but it works. Be ye filled with the Holy Ghost works.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Sounds like a gloomy conversion. When I came to God I was classified and alcoholic by carey counseling. I had lost my license for DUI, Evading Arrest, Reckless Driving. I had watched my young life go down the drain and was contemplating suicide. I came to church as a favor to my grandma. All Christians where hypocrites so I had no desire to be there (right). I had a chip on my shoulder bigger then I was.

Something got hold of me that day that changed my life. It changed the way I walk, talk, dress, act, etc.... 16 years later and I am preaching the gospel to others baptizing others in the name of Jesus. I am not at all teaching people that they can't do better. I was addressing Aquilla, about mistakes. I have made mistakes in the past 16 years, but that doesn't change who that I am. A child of God. As a child of God I don't go around expecting to make mistakes, but as it happens I am not going to let the enemy torment me over it I am going to repent and by the grace of God overcome.

Bro, did Jesus ever bring up His past? Did Jesus ever bring up his past failures? No, because He didn't have any. All He could do is point forward. I was sitting in my car with another brother I had been working with, Bible studying, trying to help. He started to tell me about how sick he was over his financial problems. I then started to tell him what I was going through at the time. He turned around with his teary bloodshot eyes, and yelled, "I don't care if you have a bad life!" i laughed, put the car in gear, and off we went.
We are to point the way. I have had preachers ask me to give my testimony. But that's not getting up there and talking about my past. It is about talking about my present in the Gospel. The devil is defeated by my testimony of what Jesus does for me currently. My past? The devil knows it, and knows how to bring it up. That's why he is the accuser of the brethren.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Absolutely, but you if have watched a baby begin walk. It is going to take some spills, that is all in learning. That doesn't stop them from getting up. Being wholly made up is not about never falling it is about never loosing sight of God. This is not the same as living in disobedience.

Babies also go to the bathroom in their clothes. If you or I were still doing that there would be something wrong with us? RIGHT?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I assure you that I agree. My whole point in the comment about not attaining perfection was in regards to the inward struggle that we all have to face at times. We are made perfect through Christ alone, and not by our own merits. Although, people who live in willful sin are not in Christ and have not even begun the journey.

I think we are both saying the same thing but in a different way. Inward struggles you had prior to Christ, are vastly different now. Inward struggles you had as a neophyte are extremely different than now. Inward struggles now are less than 10 years ago, and in the future even less. Christ alone? Christ doesn't save blocks of wood, or slabs of concrete. Christ needs you to cooperate. You have a free will to either accept or reject at any time of the journey. You can trust or not trust at any point of travel. Your free will is whether you allow something to complete itself, or stop right before the job stops. We aren't Presbyterians, but once we start believing the Demonic antichrist doctrines they teach, we will become men most miserable.

Thank you GS for the discussion.