More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So Paul was able to obey the halachah of the Talmud without fail, but once he became a Christian, he couldn't stop sinning?

That's what American Churchianity has come down to nowadays.

I do not think that was Paul's point. As a Pharisee of the Pharisees, no doubt Paul regarded himself perfect according to the Law. But as a born again Christian, Paul discovered that God demands an authenticity of holiness of heart and being that goes well beyond the dictates of the Law. A life governed by Spirit led agape. (Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do not think that was Paul's point. As a Pharisee of the Pharisees, no doubt Paul regarded himself perfect according to the Law. But as a born again Christian, Paul discovered that God demands an authenticity of holiness of heart and being that goes well beyond the dictates of the Law. A life governed by Spirit led agape. (Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14)

Jesus, and Paul are quoting Leviticus 19:18. It is interesting how people think that the early church walked around with a completed New Testament. When Jesus quotes Leviticus 19:18 he also quotes the Sh'ma Yisrael. Jesus follows up Leviticus 19:18, with Deuteronomy 6;5 because love for God is the standard among the devoted. Cain slew his near brother Able because his own works were evil. What was these works? He didn't love God, and it showed up in his disdain for his brother's love towards God. So, even before there ever was a Christain faith, the schoolmaster which was to bring you to Christ's feet was the love of God contained in the Torah. Joseph understood this principle. He was called a righteous man because of his treatment to the Mary situation. Mary goes to Elizabeth's house, and comes back pregnant. Before Joseph gets any sort of dream, Joseph needed to have the schoolmaster guide him. His freewill decision was put his wife away privately
Deuteronomy 24:1, instead of publically Leviticus 20:10. Joseph's righteousness was found in his mercy which was contained in the Torah. Therefore Jesus stresses this portion of Torah law to His followers.

Jesus didn't originate love your near brother as yourself. Jesus was quoting Shabbat 31a, the words of a first century B.C. Rabbi named Hillel. Who originally said "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: This is the entire Torah, the rest is the explanation, go now and learn it."

Bro, Paul was blameless as following the Torah, he submitted to the schoolmaster with great zeal. That is why he persecuted the followers of Christ Deuteronomy 18:20, Deuteronomy 13:5, Ezekiel 13:9. He wasn't guilty, because he persecuted them through ignorance 1 Timothy 1:13.

Paul therefore was able to confess a truth to the Philippian believers he was addressing. Paul was blameless in keeping Torah.

As was the parents of John the Baptist were also blameless concerning the Torah Luke 1:6.

Romans 7:1 informs the Diaspora Judeans that they who were in Christ were free from the law's penalty, and now were to PRODUCE FRUIT of finally being with the Master. The Law was the schoolmaster who brought them to the Master. Now, they were expected to produce the fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The writer of Romans goes on to explain that the nature which was once in them prior to Christ was a nature that was aroused by those things that the law was against. Instead of focusing on their love towards God they allowed their beastily nature to focus on the things of which were to keep the beast in check. The Law was added because of transgression Galatians 3:19. Yet, when Christ came they were to be bound "slaves in ownership" to Christ. There lives were no longer their own, but were held in Christ.

The undevoted Diaspora Judean was controlled by his old carnal nature, his sinful desires worked within his mind. The Torah actually aroused these evil desires which produced fruit of sinful works, resulting in spiritual death. When Adam and Eve partook of the Law they died spiritually. Because their eyes were opened, and they saw that GOD didn't like nakedness. So, they grabbed up the leaves from the tree and made bathing suits. Then when they heard the voice, they hid themselves. When Peter figures out who Jesus is, he tells Jesus to depart from Him, because of Peter's sin. Peter again, does this after the resurrection when they see Jesus on the shore. When Peter is told that it was Jesus, he robes himself in his fisher coat and hides himself the water.

The not loving our near brother is what causes the struggling to love God. Because how can you love an invisible GOD you can't see and hate the near brother who you can see?

That's why forgiveness is part of our salvation.

If you don't forgive you are as lost as two boys kissing.

Romans 7:6 is usually interpreted incorrectly because people tend to cherry pick. Meaning they don't take the holistic approach to the Bible. But pick it apart creating some teaching which is foreign to Christ. Romans 7:6 has the writer telling the reader that they are no longer under the schoolmaster's authority which they were held under his custodianship. Christ had appeared, and now they can serve God through the Holy Ghost, and not through human discipline. Paul, Zacharias, and Elizabeth, loved God, and everything they did as following the law was the good fruit produced by their devotional love.

Not just going through the motions of following religious jargon, like "I love you brother, I'll pray for you sister" or even saying "Praise the Lord in Jesus name" without love and devotion towards God. Lip service is what God hates the most, no matter what you dresslike.

Paul wasn't using himself as an example of the struggling law keeper. Because obviously by his own words in other places of the New Testament that wasn't the case.

It is sad, how people want to use Romans 7 as a license to claim to be a good tree, and yet produce some sorry fruit Luke 6:43, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33.

[Aquila]

I think Romans 7 should never be discussed without discussing Romans 8.

Here's my understanding...

Romans 7:1-25 (KJV)
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Here Paul is addressing Jewish Christians. He brings up how the Law has authority over a man for as long as he lives. Paul gives the example of a woman bound in marriage to her husband and how she is released from that obligation upon her husband's death. Paul then goes on to say that they have become dead to the Law on account of having entered the church, the body of Christ. Through this being dead to the Law they are now married to another, the risen Lord Jesus, and that this new life in Christ is to produce fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This is because that before their conversion (when they were in the flesh) the evil passions and affections of the mind, the lusts of the heart, sinful desires, evil thoughts, the imaginations of the thoughts of the heart, the first motions of the mind to sin were, by occasion of the law, agitated by the Law's prohibitions. It's much like when your on a diet, you crave that chocolate cake or high carb spaghetti the diet specifically tells you that you can't have. This worked in our bodies to bring forth sin unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

But now, those believing Jews, were delivered from the Law by being reckoned dead to the Law in Christ. Now they should live in a newness of spirit, and not focus on living in accordance to the letter of the Law.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul wants them to know that the Law isn't sinful or evil in any way. In fact, if it wasn't for the Law we wouldn't know what was sin and what wasn't. For example, Paul would not have known lust as sin had he not read where the Law states, "Thou shalt not covet."

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

However, the sinful nature of our flesh took occasion by his hearing of the commandment, and provoked him to desire the very thing that was prohibited. Had it not been for the Law, this nature and desire for sin would have not been made alive in him.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The arousal of his sinful nature wasn't active prior to Paul's having learned the Law; but when Paul learned the contents of the Law, this nature came alive, and in that he spiritually died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

And so the commandment, which was intended to be life giving, only served to arouse his sinful passions and condemn him. This was because the sinful nature, being aroused by the Law, tricked him, and through the very Law ordained to give life, only brought spiritual death.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

And so Paul wants them to understand that the Law itself is holy, and the commandments holy. They are not what was bringing spiritual death. But rather it was sin, that it might be revealed, that was around in him and provoking sinful desires by exploiting the prohibitions of the holy Law. Thus the commandment reveals the fallen and sinful nature that resides in us and how exceedingly sinful we truly are by nature.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul affirms that the Law is spiritual, but he is carnal, of the flesh, under the bondage of the sin nature.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

As a result of this sin nature residing in his flesh, he discovers that no matter how hard he tries to be obedient, he fails. The very thing that he's so desperately trying to overcome is the very thing he ends up doing.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There is no good thing in the flesh. It is corrupted down to its very DNA. And so, Paul explains, that if he finds himself doing the very things he detests and wouldn't do, he clearly understands and agrees with the Law. And so it is understood that it isn't he that is sinning willfully in outright rebellion, but rather it is the sin nature abiding in him that propels him to do the very things he doesn't desire to do.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Through this struggle he discovers a principle at work. Due to the sinful nature of his flesh, even when he would desire to do good, the impulse and inclination to do evil is continually present with him.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He delights in the Law in his spirit, but Paul sees another principle at work in he body that is in opposition to the desires of his mind. This principle takes him captive to the sin nature which resides in his body.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul then identifies himself as a wretched man who is sinful by nature. With the mind he desires to obey God's law; but in his flesh he feels the desire to obey the sinful nature.

Romans 8:1-14
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul reveals the secret to overcoming this sin nature is to not walk in the flesh, but to live a life that is predicated upon walking after the abiding Holy Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is because the principle of the abiding Spirit of God has made him free from the sin nature that resides in his flesh.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul goes on to explain that while the Law couldn't overcome the inherent sinful nature because of the weakness of the flesh; God having sent His Son in the likeness of our sinful flesh, took it and condemned it upon the cross. This was done so that the true righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in believers who live a life of walking after the Spirit, and deny the sinful impulses of the flesh.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

They that are living a life of surrender to the flesh do focus upon and concentrate on the things that please the flesh; but believers who remain surrendered to the Spirit do focus upon the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To be focused upon pleasing the carnal desires of the flesh is to live in a state of spiritual death; but to be spiritually minded is where one finds both spiritual life and peace of mind, escaping the condemnation that comes when one lives to please the flesh.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Being carnally minded is to live in a state of spiritual death because the carnal mind is hostile to God and spiritual things. This is because it is not subject to the Law of God, neither can it be. So the end result is that those who are carnally minded cannot please the LORD.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But born again Christians are not living in the flesh, but in the Spirit of God, if they have the Spirit of God abiding in them. Thus, if any man doesn't have the Holy Spirit, he cannot claim to belong to Christ. And if Jesus Himself be abiding in the believer, the body/flesh is condemned because of the sin nature; but the Spirit provides life because of Christ's indwelling righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

And if the Spirit of the Father who raised up Jesus from the dead abides in us, he that also raised up Jesus will quicken our mortal bodies by the very Spirit that abides in us. And so, we should not live as owing the flesh anything, or seek to appease its desires.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This is because if we live a life surrendered to the flesh, we will spiritually die. But if we, through the leading of the Spirit, do kill the desires of the flesh, we will remain spiritually alive. And so we understand that we are the sons of God, if we allow ourselves to be led of the Spirit.

Would you agree with this Bro. Benincasa?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Paul then identifies himself as a wretched man who is sinful by nature. With the mind he desires to obey God's law; but in his flesh he feels the desire to obey the sinful nature.

You aren't read the Bible in its entire thought. I can't even say you cherry pick. You just read straight out of a commentary. Then instead of making the Bible your point of reference, the particular commentator becomes your point of reference. Paul was wrestling and struggling with his sinful nature? 2 Cor 10:4-5 has Paul saying no way. Paul taught that the Holy Ghost filled mind would bring down every stronghold. Romans 7:1-6 Paul states that the law (schoolmaster) had completed its task and bounded us to Christ. The Torah has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Which is the same Galatians 3:24-25, but using a different metaphor. We are alive in Christ, and no longer a child under the dominion of the schoolmaster which was Torah law. Paul, was blameless concerning this torah law. He didn't tell the Philippian church that he thought he kept the law blamelessly? No, he said he was blameless. Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth were blameless concerning the law. That wasn't their words, that was Luke's words. Ezekiel 14:14 states that Noah, Daniel and Job were able to deliver themselves with their own righteousness?
Those are Ezekiel's words, that these men giving their own testimony. Hebrews 11:7 Noah's righteousness came from His devotion to God.

Yet, all who were during the Law and before the law, needed to be in Christ. The law rolled a man's sins until the day of Messiah. Then the Lamb would be slain to take away the sins of the world which was the domestic olive tree. The only way the unbelieving Judeans and Gentiles could get back in was through devotion to God. Believing in the Messiah.

Romans 7:1 Paul is speaking about Law having custody over the law keeping Judean as long as he lives. Paul uses an analogy concerning the covenant people being married to the Law,Yet, when the Law is dead, we like any wife is free to marry another. That other is Chist. If the Judean and Israeli Apostolic were to return to Levitical law practices they would be committing spiritual adultery. Therefore making themselves a transgressor. Romans 7:4 nails down the transformation quite well. It has the writer of Romans saying You are dead to the law through the body of Christ, Therefore you may belong to the one who has been raised from the dead. In this way you may now produce fruit for God. Is Paul continuing in his wretchedness? Is Paul struggling with sin? Then Paul should take his own advise and get saved.

Romans 7:5 Paul states that they "were" living in carnality, going through religious motions. Like Cain offering up the first fruits of his labor. Just doing what was required. Saying Christiansims because you are in that particular religion. We must remember that this is the Paul who said "must we continue in sin that grace may be greater? God forbid! Romans 7:5 then goes on to say that concupiscence "sinful lust, aroused by the prohibitions in the law, were working in the mind to produce fruit which causes death. Was this happening in the apostle? Romans 7:6 We are released from the schoolmaster, who once held custody over us. The schoolmaster brought us to the Master, so we may serve in the new way of the Spirit of truth and not in the old way of following written precepts. What you and others seem to be missing is that Paul is trying to describe an individual who was just going through the religious motions. Wanting to do the right thing but couldn't because they didn't allow God full entrance in their life. You guys who believe in accepting Jesus as your personal savior then getting wet in water, to come out unchanged as they went in the water. Because you take Paul's words from Romans 7 and allow people to believe that's the Christian walk. Struggling and bleeding and they hang on their cross.

Paul, understood the religious law keeping world of the first century. He understood the different schools of thought. Paul totally understood those who would bless you out of one side of the mouth and curse you out of the other James 3:11. Paul had spent time renewing his mind, not to be a slave to the Law system, but a slave to Jesus Christ. In Romans 7 Paul wanted to relay to Diaspora Judeans living in Rome what happens when they give in to desire to return to being religious through their own human discipline.

Romans 8 nails it down, by simply saying that the Diaspora Judean Apostolic was no longer under the condemnation of the law for those who were in Christ and followed the Holy Ghost of Christ. Do I agree with this? Yes, do I agree that Paul was struggling with sinful nature? No, because he understood far more than anyone gives him credit. he rose above his peers because of his revelations and Peter even attests to this 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Sadly blind guides who want to justify their own sinful nature take Paul's words and wrest them to their own destruction.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think Romans 7 should never be discussed without discussing Romans 8.

Here's my understanding...

Romans 7:1-25 (KJV)
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Here Paul is addressing Jewish Christians. He brings up how the Law has authority over a man for as long as he lives. Paul gives the example of a woman bound in marriage to her husband and how she is released from that obligation upon her husband's death. Paul then goes on to say that they have become dead to the Law on account of having entered the church, the body of Christ. Through this being dead to the Law they are now married to another, the risen Lord Jesus, and that this new life in Christ is to produce fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This is because that before their conversion (when they were in the flesh) the evil passions and affections of the mind, the lusts of the heart, sinful desires, evil thoughts, the imaginations of the thoughts of the heart, the first motions of the mind to sin were, by occasion of the law, agitated by the Law's prohibitions. It's much like when your on a diet, you crave that chocolate cake or high carb spaghetti the diet specifically tells you that you can't have. This worked in our bodies to bring forth sin unto death.

Question? Does a diet cause you to crave sweets? The diet only prohibits the sweets. I don't think that Paul is meaning that the law is the cause of sin but instead reveals the sinful nature

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

But now, those believing Jews, were delivered from the Law by being reckoned dead to the Law in Christ. Now they should live in a newness of spirit, and not focus on living in accordance to the letter of the Law.

It uses the term serve in newness of Spirit. I think we should understand that servitude denotes being bound to that master. If people merely live their lives they miss the fact that our lives should be in servitude to God. The flesh gives commands through lusts, while God commands us through His Spirit. We are to serve in newness of Spirit. aka: Holy Ghost


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul wants them to know that the Law isn't sinful or evil in any way. In fact, if it wasn't for the Law we wouldn't know what was sin and what wasn't. For example, Paul would not have known lust as sin had he not read where the Law states, "Thou shalt not covet."

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

However, the sinful nature of our flesh took occasion by his hearing of the commandment, and provoked him to desire the very thing that was prohibited. Had it not been for the Law, this nature and desire for sin would have not been made alive in him.

The Law didn't create the nature and desire, but instead restricted. If there was no law, then there would be no sin. Sin is disobedience to God. Without a command there can be no disobedience, but the law reveals that our natural affections are enmity against God.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The arousal of his sinful nature wasn't active prior to Paul's having learned the Law; but when Paul learned the contents of the Law, this nature came alive, and in that he spiritually died.

Again, the law didn't cause the sinful nature. The gave life to the sin. The law isn't the problem, but it is the nature of man.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

And so the commandment, which was intended to be life giving, only served to arouse his sinful passions and condemn him. This was because the sinful nature, being aroused by the Law, tricked him, and through the very Law ordained to give life, only brought spiritual death.

The law that was given for life really brought death. Why? Because of mans failure of keeping it. Man's nature has not changed. But the laws fulfillment was Jesus Christ, aka life.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

And so Paul wants them to understand that the Law itself is holy, and the commandments holy. They are not what was bringing spiritual death. But rather it was sin, that it might be revealed, that was around in him and provoking sinful desires by exploiting the prohibitions of the holy Law. Thus the commandment reveals the fallen and sinful nature that resides in us and how exceedingly sinful we truly are by nature.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul affirms that the Law is spiritual, but he is carnal, of the flesh, under the bondage of the sin nature.

Although, he is speaking present tense, he is refering to himself in his own nature (without Christ's Spirit). Paul was not licensing Carnality. I assure you the man who wrote this letter was writing by the annointing of the Holy Ghost.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

As a result of this sin nature residing in his flesh, he discovers that no matter how hard he tries to be obedient, he fails. The very thing that he's so desperately trying to overcome is the very thing he ends up doing.

Again he is speaking about his personal human nature (without Christ).

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There is no good thing in the flesh. It is corrupted down to its very DNA. And so, Paul explains, that if he finds himself doing the very things he detests and wouldn't do, he clearly understands and agrees with the Law. And so it is understood that it isn't he that is sinning willfully in outright rebellion, but rather it is the sin nature abiding in him that propels him to do the very things he doesn't desire to do.

Paul is giving an illustration. He is not confessing walking after the flesh in sin.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Through this struggle he discovers a principle at work. Due to the sinful nature of his flesh, even when he would desire to do good, the impulse and inclination to do evil is continually present with him.

Human nature never ceases as long as it is alive.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He delights in the Law in his spirit, but Paul sees another principle at work in he body that is in opposition to the desires of his mind. This principle takes him captive to the sin nature which resides in his body.

He is using all this as an illustration to make and admonition. This is not a confession to license a lack of control over our sinful nature.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul then identifies himself as a wretched man who is sinful by nature. With the mind he desires to obey God's law; but in his flesh he feels the desire to obey the sinful nature.

Paul identifies the two options at work, but this is not a confession of a sinful Christian. You cannot serve two masters. which one is Paul submitted to?

[good samaritan]

Romans 8:1-14
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul reveals the secret to overcoming this sin nature is to not walk in the flesh, but to live a life that is predicated upon walking after the abiding Holy Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is because the principle of the abiding Spirit of God has made him free from the sin nature that resides in his flesh.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul goes on to explain that while the Law couldn't overcome the inherent sinful nature because of the weakness of the flesh; God having sent His Son in the likeness of our sinful flesh, took it and condemned it upon the cross. This was done so that the true righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in believers who live a life of walking after the Spirit, and deny the sinful impulses of the flesh.

Thank God for the Holy Ghost!

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

They that are living a life of surrender to the flesh do focus upon and concentrate on the things that please the flesh; but believers who remain surrendered to the Spirit do focus upon the things of the Spirit.

Paul minded the Spirit!

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To be focused upon pleasing the carnal desires of the flesh is to live in a state of spiritual death; but to be spiritually minded is where one finds both spiritual life and peace of mind, escaping the condemnation that comes when one lives to please the flesh.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Being carnally minded is to live in a state of spiritual death because the carnal mind is hostile to God and spiritual things. This is because it is not subject to the Law of God, neither can it be. So the end result is that those who are carnally minded cannot please the LORD.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But born again Christians are not living in the flesh, but in the Spirit of God, if they have the Spirit of God abiding in them. Thus, if any man doesn't have the Holy Spirit, he cannot claim to belong to Christ. And if Jesus Himself be abiding in the believer, the body/flesh is condemned because of the sin nature; but the Spirit provides life because of Christ's indwelling righteousness.

Also if we are living in the Spirit we cannot continue in sin.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

And if the Spirit of the Father who raised up Jesus from the dead abides in us, he that also raised up Jesus will quicken our mortal bodies by the very Spirit that abides in us. And so, we should not live as owing the flesh anything, or seek to appease its desires.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This is because if we live a life surrendered to the flesh, we will spiritually die. But if we, through the leading of the Spirit, do kill the desires of the flesh, we will remain spiritually alive. And so we understand that we are the sons of God, if we allow ourselves to be led of the Spirit.

Would you agree with this Bro. Benincasa?

In a nutshell:
*Pauls says that the law reveals the wicked nature of man
*Paul cannot please God through his sinful nature
*We must have the Holy Ghost to please God
*The Holy Ghost must be our master
*If you obey the flesh you will die lost

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

In a nutshell:
*Pauls says that the law reveals the wicked nature of man
*Paul cannot please God through his sinful nature
*We must have the Holy Ghost to please God
*The Holy Ghost must be our master
*If you obey the flesh you will die lost

Exactly.

[Aquila]

My only question is...

Since I've yet to meet a single sinless Christian (meaning void of all sinful actions, desires, impulses, or inclinations), I've yet to meet a real Christian. Why is that?

Is anyone here sinless and the Bible demands we must be???

It's all rather discouraging.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My only question is...

Since I've yet to meet a single sinless Christian (meaning void of all sinful actions, desires, impulses, or inclinations), I've yet to meet a real Christian. Why is that?

Is anyone here sinless and the Bible demands we must be???

It's all rather discouraging.

Aquila so you posted a commentary? Did you even read what you posted to us? Even that commentary doesn't believe what you are now stating here. Did you happen to read what I posted back to you? How far did you honestly get? You thumbed up GS' post, do you understand what you thumbed up?

Explain honestly without looking into a commentary what 1 John 3:8 means. Please read it from your ESV. It simplifies the verse quite nicely.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Aquila so you posted a commentary? Did you even read what you posted to us? Even that commentary doesn't believe what you are now stating here. Did you happen to read what I posted back to you? How far did you honestly get? You thumbed up GS' post, do you understand what you thumbed up?

Explain honestly without looking into a commentary what 1 John 3:8 means. Please read it from your ESV. It simplifies the verse quite nicely.

I thumbs upped it because it's the Scripture, and no matter what it is true. Even if I find myself not being able to live up to it or fully understand it all. I've tried trying. I've tried trying harder. I've done the legalism thing (you've beat up me thoroughly with it already, I get it). I've tried not trying at all and simply relying on some "new nature" to guide me. I've tried praying until I just sit and stare not knowing what else to confess, to repent of, or to do. I've tried to just focus on loving God and loving others, and still that wasn't enough. And... so far, nothing has worked for me. I might get as far as a day or two without sinning and then, I'm flat on my face again. Rather it be anger, lust, covetousness, etc... in a day or two, I'm back on the ropes. I think I hear the Spirit whispering "grace", but nobody believes in that sloppy agape, even I can't grasp it. I mean, why would God pardon me when I can't stop sinning? Sometimes I want to scream into the heavens, "I hate what I am, I didn't ask to be born. If this is some kind of sick joke, can you please just hurry up with the punchline? You win. I'm tired. I don't want to hurt anyone... I just want to be... happy."

I've tried ultra-cons, I've tried liberal churches, I've tried so called moderate churches, I've rolled with the Reformed, charismatics, etc. Every last one of them was a joke. All of them were equally "trying" whatever it was they thought was the answer (some even trying hard to not try! lol)... but all were failing miserably.

I listen to all the sinless holiness talk... but NO ONE has yet to step up to the plate who is actually living the sinless life the Bible demands and show me how to get this right for a change.

I've tied a knot at the end of the rope and I'm hanging on for dear life. But, I'll be honest... sometimes just the thought of walking away from it all allows me to breath easier.

I'm not being a jerk here guys. I feel like crying. But I've cried over this for so many years, and it hasn't helped yet.

I feel like I'm drowning. And the closer I feel that I get to God in prayer, the more evident it becomes that I'm a wretch. An absolute failure. It's the most depressing feeling, I can't even describe it. It's like an utter hopelessness. I've excelled in so many areas of my life most would think I have nothing to fear or that could make me feel like a failure. But this does. And this is what has always mattered most to me. Everything else from military service to what I do for a living now doesn't mean anything to me compared to this. But this is the one thing I feel God dangling in front of me... and I've discovered, I can't ever reach it, grasp it, and attain it.

I need help. I need someone who is actually living this thing to show me how it is done. Broad theological discourses are often like communism. They sound good on paper... but when applied... it still doesn't work. Every mentor and pastor I've had was flawed. I'm not going to bash them and list the things I discovered in their closets, but they weren't living it. They were great people, but they didn't even have the victory the Bible speaks of.

I'm hurting, I'm tired, and I really want to get this with all my heart... but I'm feeling really, really, discouraged. I dig politics because it isn't so close to home for me. We can debate economics and politics all day and I can ignore the pain I feel spiritually. But the reality is... I can't bring myself to give up... but if I could, I would.

I'm no victim. I'm to blame for my condition. No devil made me like this. No preacher made me this way. But I have yet to find the secret to all of this.

I really feel hopeless today.