How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can you explain where in Acts ch. 1 you see evidence that only "those of that generation" would see Jesus return in the same manner in which he left?

The Bible does not compartmentalize its message in neat chapters and verses. Man did that, not God. So, my answer to you would be by verses such as what's found in Acts 2. Here's what Peter said there:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The Bible does not compartmentalize its message in neat chapters and verses. Man did that, not God. So, my answer to you would be by verses such as what's found in Acts 2. Here's what Peter said there:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.

Therein is the cruxt of this issue....basically, you believe that based on the disciples understanding of old covenant imagery, and what Jesus talk to him during his 3 1/2 years regarding the coming judgment on that generation, that they would interpret the angels words in like manner as judgment, because since Jesus ascended up and disappeared into the clouds, and knowing that the disciples would have interpreted old covenant lingo of God coming in the clouds as judgment, then they would have interpreted the angels “in like manner as you have seen him ascend”, as the AD 70 judgment siege.

I assume you believe they understood the angel’s words as the coming judgement, right then and there when they heard the angel say, “in like manner as you saw Him leave, correct? And do you also believe they would have interpreted the angel’s words as Jesus returning, without having a physical body?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Therein is the cruxt of this issue....basically, you believe that based on the disciples understanding of old covenant imagery, and what Jesus talk to him during his 3 1/2 years regarding the coming judgment on that generation, that they would interpret the angels words in like manner as judgment, because since Jesus ascended up and disappeared into the clouds, and knowing that the disciples would have interpreted old covenant lingo of God coming in the clouds as judgment, then they would have interpreted the angels “in like manner as you have seen him ascend”, as the AD 70 judgment siege.

I assume you believe they understood the angel’s words as the coming judgement, right then and there when they heard the angel say, “in like manner as you saw Him leave, correct? And do you also believe they would have interpreted the angel’s words as Jesus returning, without having a physical body?

Clouds used in prophetic language represented God's "glory" and His "power". The "manner" in Acts 1 speaks of Jesus ascending in glory and in power and later returning in glory and in power. That is what I wrote.

We see Jesus' same usage of clouds in prophetic imagery in these verses:

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Peter heard this and preached in Acts 2:40 that those in his audience should save themselves from what was coming to THAT rebellious generation.

To be clear, of course, the clouds were literal clouds in Acts 1. However, both Moses and Joshua had literal "cloud" experiences, but the Bible uses those clouds to represent something more than a fluffy mass of condensed water vapor floating in the atmosphere.

So, can you explain how after hearing Jesus say what He did about "clouds" and "glory" and "power" that the apostles did not associate a (then) coming judgment in "glory" and in "power" with what they experienced in Acts 1?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Clouds used in prophetic language represented God's "glory" and His "power". The "manner" in Acts 1 speaks of Jesus ascending in glory and in power and later returning in glory and in power. That is what I wrote.

We see Jesus' same usage of clouds in prophetic imagery in these verses:

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Peter heard this and preached in Acts 2:40 that those in his audience should save themselves from what was coming to THAT rebellious generation.

To be clear, of course, the clouds were literal clouds in Acts 1. However, both Moses and Joshua had literal "cloud" experiences, but the Bible uses those clouds to represent something more than a fluffy mass of condensed water vapor floating in the atmosphere.

So, can you explain how after hearing Jesus say what He did about "clouds" and "glory" and "power" that the apostles did not associate a (then) coming judgment in "glory" and in "power" with what they experienced in Acts 1?

Reading between the lines again?




LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Clouds used in prophetic language represented God's "glory" and His "power".

Amen. However, I believe this is only true when used in symbolic, poetic, or apocalyptic writing. It would appear that the writer of Acts is describing an actual event wherein an actual cloud received Christ out of their sight.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen. However, I believe this is only true when used in symbolic, poetic, or apocalyptic writing. It would appear that the writer of Acts is describing an actual event wherein an actual cloud received Christ out of their sight.

Do you think the clouds found with Moses and with Joshua were literal clouds?

What about the clouds Jesus spoke of in these verses?

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they

see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Are they literal or spiritual?

And since the angels in Acts 1 were prophesying of what was to come, tell me how you determine those clouds were literal and not spiritual?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Do you think the clouds found with Moses and with Joshua were literal clouds?

What about the clouds Jesus spoke of in these verses?

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they

see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Are they literal or spiritual?

And since the angels in Acts 1 were prophesying of what was to come, tell me how you determine those clouds were literal and not spiritual?

All literal.

Spiritual is invisible to humans.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Do you think the clouds found with Moses and with Joshua were literal clouds?

A literal cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night. Yes.

What about the clouds Jesus spoke of in these verses?

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they

see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Are they literal or spiritual?

Since Jesus was speaking apocalyptically (symbols of sun darkened, moon turning to blood, stars falling, etc.), I'd say that a strong case can be made that clouds Jesus spoke of depict a spiritual reality, not a physical one.

And since the angels in Acts 1 were prophesying of what was to come, tell me how you determine those clouds were literal and not spiritual?

Since Jesus had just literally ascended, the angels were providing a literal description of His return.

Not every reference to clouds is literal. Nor is every reference to clouds symbolic or spiritual.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So having one's sins forgiven and being redeemed by the work of Christ would save people from the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome? I'm not understanding how, IF the promised judgment was for THAT generation at THAT time, and the proferred salvation and deliverance was for THAT generation at THAT time, and all had respect to the coming AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem by Rome, how that has anything whatsoever to do with any of us today, or how it would have anything to do with anyone outside of Jerusalem (or perhaps Judea) back then?

I'll have to chew on this for awhile. Maybe I'm not making myself clear, so maybe you are misunderstanding what issue I'm having with this. Or maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying.

I'll think about this and be back.

Maybe I could understand your confusion better if you'd explain what you believe is said in Acts 2:40?

Obeying Acts 2:38 is not the end of salvation, but rather the beginning. The Great Commission is to teach, to convert, and to teach all things. In Acts 2, Peter taught, he gave the message for conversion, and then he went further and taught more things.

Peter told the Jews that day to obey Acts 2:38 for salvation. He also said they should save themselves from a judgment coming against their untoward generation. So, their sins were saved through obeying Acts 2:38. This salvation also placed them in the group that would miss that coming judgment, since they--as believers--would obey what Jesus taught in Luke 21:20.

But how is being Born Again also involved with "saving yourself"? Only Jesus can forgive sins, so how were they to "save yourselves"? I believe obeying Acts 2:38 saves a person from their sins. But this "save yourselves" is about those then obeying what Jesus said to do when they saw that coming judgment. No unbelieving Jew would obey Jesus, so they would be the ones who would suffer the (then) coming judgment of that untoward generation.

I never said that rebellious generation had anything to do with us today. They wouldn't have anything to do with us today any more than the 3,000 baptized has anything to do with us today. The Bible is not written to us but for us. Peter's message was spoken to the listeners that day, but his message is for all mankind, as confirmed in Acts 2:39. Thus, the 3,000 were saved that day by obeying Acts 2:38, and everyone since that time until now is saved by obeying that same Acts 2:38 message. Today, reading 3,000 were baptized after hearing what Peter preached helps us see the necessity of Acts 2:38 for salvation. But, that same Acts 2 message included Peter delivering a warning to the people that day that they should escape the judgment coming against their crooked generation. Since it was a warning to that audience, we know that judgment is now past and not for us today.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A literal cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night. Yes.

Since Jesus was speaking apocalyptically (symbols of sun darkened, moon turning to blood, stars falling, etc.), I'd say that a strong case can be made that clouds Jesus spoke of depict a spiritual reality, not a physical one.

Since Jesus had just literally ascended, the angels were providing a literal description of His return.

Not every reference to clouds is literal. Nor is every reference to clouds symbolic or spiritual.

Please, explain how you know the clouds in Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64, Mark 13:26 and Luke 21:27 are not literal clouds.

Wasn't Jesus literally coming in "power" and in "glory"?

So, what biblical evidence did you use to decide these clouds were not literal as well?