How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Since this may be seen as an insinuation, I have never one time believed, taught, or written that the clouds are dust from the Romans.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Okay, glad to get that clarified.

How's brother Benincasa? Do we need to do a quick fundraiser for his new laptop?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If we follow this logic to its rational conclusion, it would mean tht Acts 2:38 is for that generation, not ours. The people were to be saved from THAT wicked and perverse generation, which you seem to interpret as meaning they were to save themselves from the divine judgment coming on that generation in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem. Which seems strange to me, couldn't Peter have simply said "get out of Jerusalem until the Romans destroy it"?

Perhaps you could show how Peter's words to THAT generation have any relevance to us now, almost 2,000 years later?

There are no verses that place an ending of the gospel. As a matter of fact, the Bible is clear that the gospel is everlasting and if there ever is another one it is to be accursed.

However, when it comes to Jesus coming to bring judgment against the rebellious old covenant people, there are several verses that say that will happen during the same generation in which Jesus taught.

I can provide verses for either of the above points if you wish.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

There are no verses that place an ending of the gospel. As a matter of fact, the Bible is clear that the gospel is everlasting and if there ever is another one it is to be accursed.

However, when it comes to Jesus coming to bring judgment against the rebellious old covenant people, there are several verses that say that will happen during the same generation in which Jesus taught.

I can provide verses for either of the above points if you wish.

Yes, but Peter spoke to THAT GENERATION. He offered them salvation from a PARTICULAR COMING JUDGEMENT, did he not? If that offered salvation is to be saved from "THIS generation", then the salvation being offered and spoken about in Acts 2 is from THAT PARTICULAR GENERATION. Are there two offers of salvation? How would we know? Is it not true that the only way we could know would be if it were written in the Bible?

And if the offer of salvation in Acts 2 is an offer of salvation from the judgement against Jerusalem in AD 70, then it clearly does not apply to us, today.

And, just in case you missed it, I repeat my earlier question:

Just exactly how does repenting and being baptised in Jesus name and being filled with the Holy Ghost save someone from the Roman destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later?

[Esaias]

BTW, brother Burk, if and when you have time, I'd like your contributions to the thread I started "Salvation depends on doctrine" here in the Fellowship Hall. I'm hoping others will chime in as well, because I want to get to the meat of the question: How do we determine DOCTRINE?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A follow up question seeking more clarification:

How would being baptised in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost save someone from a Roman invasion of Judea and siege of Jerusalem some 40 years later?

Ok, I guess I need to list some verses for this one.

The men who were in the Upper Room and heard Peter's message were part of the same generation that was to see the prophesied 70AD judgment. We know they were Jews, so that judgment did affect them. Hence, "save yourselves from THIS rebellious generation." The saving involved entering into the New Covenant, which thus removed them from the Old Covenant, which removed those from being taken in said judgment and placed among those who would be left behind to live.

Luke 21:20-22
20....And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21....Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22....For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Who was this warning to? Those in Judea who would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. When was this to happen? During "the days of vengeance." And when would that take place?

Luk 21:32....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 24:34....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30....Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

There are more passages, but these are enough to show that the (then) coming judgment was to happen during a time of that generation.

That judgment came 40 years after Jesus' ministry ended, which equates to a biblical generation.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

The bolded is interesting, in light of John 21:22

Otherwise, John wandering somewhere still waiting.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen. However, I believe this is only true when used in symbolic, poetic, or apocalyptic writing. It would appear that the writer of Acts is describing an actual event wherein an actual cloud received Christ out of their sight.

Do you think the clouds found with Moses and with Joshua were literal clouds?

What about the clouds Jesus spoke of in these verses?

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they

see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Are they literal or spiritual?

And since the angels in Acts 1 were prophesying of what was to come, tell me how you determine those clouds were literal and not spiritual?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Ok, I guess I need to list some verses for this one.

The men who were in the Upper Room and heard Peter's message were part of the same generation that was to see the prophesied 70AD judgment. We know they were Jews, so that judgment did affect them. Hence, "save yourselves from THIS rebellious generation." The saving involved entering into the New Covenant, which thus removed them from the Old Covenant, which removed those from being taken in said judgment and placed among those who would be left behind to live.

Luke 21:20-22
20....And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21....Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22....For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Who was this warning to? Those in Judea who would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. When was this to happen? During "the days of vengeance." And when would that take place?

Luk 21:32....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 24:34....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30....Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

There are more passages, but these are enough to show that the (then) coming judgment was to happen during a time of that generation.

That judgment came 40 years after Jesus' ministry ended, which equates to a biblical generation.

So then if a Jew rejected Peter's message, but decided to move out of Jerusalem, and happened to not be in Jerusalem in AD 70... they got saved by accident? Outside of Acts 2:38?

See, that's where I am having the difficulty here. The prophesied judgment was for THAT GENERATION. Therefore the proferred salvation was also for THAT GENERATION. Since the judgment was for THAT GENERATION, it is NOT for OUR generation, or any other generation. And therefore, the proferred salvation would not be for our generation, or any other generation.

Peter even said "the promise is unto you, your children, and even those far away"... meaning the people living in that time, even if they were far away from Jerusalem. Which again causes me to wonder: if the judgment was regarding Jerusalem's destruction by Rome in AD 70, then how could anyone who was far away be threatened with said judgment? Somebody living in say Susa, Persia would not be in any danger whatsoever of Rome destroying Jerusalem....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Do you think the clouds found with Moses and with Joshua were literal clouds?

What about the clouds Jesus spoke of in these verses?

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they

see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great POWER and GLORY.

Are they literal or spiritual?

And since the angels in Acts 1 were prophesying of what was to come, tell me how you determine those clouds were literal and not spiritual?

All literal.

Spiritual is invisible to humans.

[Sean]

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.