Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

No, but that isn't what contemplative or centering or soaking really is. If you believe it's just warm feelz, then you don't really know what contemplative, centering or soaking is. The origins are from the occult and catholic mysticism.

You're only judging it according to what others have said it is. I'm willing to wager that if you actually researched it more deeply, you'd realize that in many ways, even you have done it for years. You just didn't put a label on it.

Do you also hold seances? Do you sit in a circle with a pentagram and burn sage?

Nope.

Why would you even ask that???

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're only judging it according to what others have said it is. I'm willing to wager that if you actually researched it more deeply, you'd realize that in many ways, even you have done it for years. You just didn't put a label on it.

Actually, I've looked into it and where it began. Contemplative prayer, centering, balancing, soaking, whatever new label you wish you call it, all began and has roots in the occult and mysticism.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Nope.

Why would you even ask that???

Because seances, burning sage, contemplative prayer, centering, balancing all come from occultism and mysticism.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Actually, I've looked into it and where it began. Contemplative prayer, centering, balancing, soaking, whatever new label you wish you call it, all began and has roots in the occult and mysticism.

Because seances, burning sage, contemplative prayer, centering, balancing all come from occultism and mysticism.

So, you don't believe in being silent and simply enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to permeate your being (body, soul, spirit)?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, you don't believe in being silent and simply enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to permeate your being (body, soul, spirit)?

This used to be called "waiting on the Lord" in old time Pentecost.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This used to be called "waiting on the Lord" in old time Pentecost.

I remember it well. We'd gather for prayer and find a quiet spot in the sanctuary where we'd lay, sit, or prostrate ourselves and just soak in God's presence. The Spirit would move and we'd quietly pray, speak in tongues, weep, as the Spirit spoke to us. Whether one calls it "waiting on the Lord" or "soaking prayer", it's all the same thing.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I remember it well. We'd gather for prayer and find a quiet spot in the sanctuary where we'd lay, sit, or prostrate ourselves and just soak in God's presence. The Spirit would move and we'd quietly pray, speak in tongues, weep, as the Spirit spoke to us. Whether one calls it "waiting on the Lord" or "soaking prayer", it's all the same thing.

That...

is not this

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've turned on some soft worship music, laid down on my couch, folded my hands, and just focused on breathing or on a single word. I like the name of Jesus. Sometimes I love to extend it as I say it or think it, "Jeeeesus". Sometimes, it's a phrase, "I loooove you, Lord." On other occasions it's, "Hallelujah" (more like, "Haaaaleluuuujah.").

What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections

Originally Posted by Aquila

Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to have prepared some soft and relaxing worship music, burn a soothing aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down (or do all three). Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text.

That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

That...

is not this



What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections



That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

You killed it!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

That...

is not this



What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections



That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

My point is... it is relatively the same. Keating didn't discover anything that Pentecostals haven't been doing for generations without all the trappings of Catholicism. Keating is only using systematic terminology that we don't use. We Pentecostals are well ahead of Keating and the charismatics. You mean to tell me that you've never entered into a contemplative state of prayer focused on the name of Jesus, His work on the cross, baptism, Spirit infilling, a specific teaching, or word in Scripture? You've never received visions, insight, or direction based on your reflections in prayer? You've never been in this state of prayer and experienced bodily sensations or deep spiritual impressions? If you have... you've done this too.

Remember, well before Pentecostals became "popular", the main stream denominations were calling us witches, claiming that speaking in tongues was occult or of the devil, and even charging us for seeking "mystical experiences" outside of the purely intellectual framework of Biblical doctrines.

I challenge you with this. I think you've drifted from the more spiritual path that embraces spiritual experiences, visions, and practices to embrace an unbalanced position of rationalism and skepticism. You'd condemn the Apostolic seers, healers, visionaries, and prophets among us because they don't measure up to your dusty old, spiritually dead, pseudo-intellectualism that denounces any spiritual experience or seeking that might challenge your rationalistic interpretation of Scripture.

As I studied soaking prayer and contemplative prayer I found myself thinking... "This guy has no new insight. He's only discussing the spiritual benefits of what we've done and experienced all these years. He's just trying to inject elements of Catholicism into it." There is a growing hunger among those outside of Pentecost for what we've always had and experienced.