Saved Without A Pastor??

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The entire book is symbolic. The seven angels are also seven candle sticks. Should we believe that John was also speaking with a anglic being who was also an oil lamp?

thank you, that makes sense.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

thank you, that makes sense.

Revelation 1:20 speaks of seven stars being held in the right hand of Jesus. Who is in the middle of a seven fluted oil lamp. This oil lamp is connected to these seven stars seated in His right hand. The seven stars are these seven angels which are messengers to the lamp, which are called out assemblies located in Asia Minor. The oil lamps, stars, and angels are all connected. Revelation 2:5 shows where one of the branches of the menorah is in danger of being removed, from the angel. The angel here is being rebuked and told that it has fallen, and needs to get things right. Are we to believe that the angel is a fallen angel over the city of Ephesus? No, it is a guiding star, Jude 1:12-13 false ministry is considered to be wandering stars. Stars in ancient times were used to plot a course, to seek correct direction. In Revelation the stars are found in the right hand of Christ the ancient of days. Which means Christ is in control, if these stars remain fixed, and therefore can continue to have the light unto their feet from the word which fuels the candlesticks. In Jude, the wandering stars are reserved for "darkness" which is a condition which is void of light, which is knowledge of God's word. These wandering stars are not in His hands but go as they please, under their own human will. They have no headship from their head which is Christ. Therefore, no headship, no light, no right hand position of authority, and lastly no knowledge.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:20 speaks of seven stars being held in the right hand of Jesus. Who is in the middle of a seven fluted oil lamp. This oil lamp is connected to these seven stars seated in His right hand. The seven stars are these seven angels which are messengers to the lamp, which are called out assemblies located in Asia Minor. The oil lamps, stars, and angels are all connected. Revelation 2:5 shows where one of the branches of the menorah is in danger of being removed, from the angel. The angel here is being rebuked and told that it has fallen, and needs to get things right. Are we to believe that the angel is a fallen angel over the city of Ephesus? No, it is a guiding star, Jude 1:12-13 false ministry is considered to be wandering stars. Stars in ancient times were used to plot a course, to seek correct direction. In Revelation the stars are found in the right hand of Christ the ancient of days. Which means Christ is in control, if these stars remain fixed, and therefore can continue to have the light unto their feet from the word which fuels the candlesticks. In Jude, the wandering stars are reserved for "darkness" which is a condition which is void of light, which is knowledge of God's word. These wandering stars are not in His hands but go as they please, under their own human will. They have no headship from their head which is Christ. Therefore, no headship, no light, no right hand position of authority, and lastly no knowledge.

Well said Brother! So a lot of so called Pastor's are apostate. But there are those who appointed and placed there by God, held in His hand. "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

In what you just said we can see what Hebrews 13:7 was meaning "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." So fighting leadership when its appointed by Christ, would be the same as to fight against Christ. Its that simple. This is the second time weve had this conversation last time Originalist and Tithesmeister double teamed me, and kept saying that was angelic beings, regardless of what thr scripture said. Now, I see you see the same thing thats all that matters. In the words of Elder Westberg "Let the dog's bark, but let the truck roll!" Moving on..

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Well said Brother! So a lot of so called Pastor's are apostate. But there are those who appointed and placed there by God, held in His hand. "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

In what you just said we can see what Hebrews 13:7 was meaning "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." So fighting leadership when its appointed by Christ, would be the same as to fight against Christ. Its that simple. This is the second time we've had this conversation last time Originalist and Tithesmeister double teamed me, and kept saying that was angelic beings, regardless of what the scripture said. Now, I see you see the same thing thats all that matters. In the words of Elder Westberg "Let the dog's bark, but let the truck roll!" Moving on..

Elder Westberg said that? I thought my dad came up with that? Sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug I thought my mom came up with that? Anyway, those two brothers wouldn't double team you, no one double teams anyone around here. We just get in discussions which may not agree with others on the forum. Like Elder James LeDeay, he would take on like 5 posters at a time. He is like the IP Man of eschatology.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Elder Westberg said that? I thought my dad came up with that? Sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug I thought my mom came up with that? Anyway, those two brothers wouldn't double team you, no one double teams anyone around here. We just get in discussions which may not agree with others on the forum. Like Elder James LeDeay, he would take on like 5 posters at a time. He is like the IP Man of eschatology.

Lol...

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I mean the whole argument is really about authority. Hebrews 13:7 says "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." What's in bold is the subject for verse 17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

1. You really need to learn the definition of what rule means in this context.

2. You really need to learn the definition of souls in this context.

Go to your Strong's Concordance (I already did this but you ignored it) and copy and paste the definitions relevant to these two key words.

Now let's address the words of God in the context that the author of Hebrews delivered this letter. (I'm typing slowly so that I don't lose you.) Read this post three times and think about it.

In regards to context:

Q. Who was the author speaking to?

A. He was, of course speaking to the Hebrews.

Q. Why does it matter to whom he was speaking?

A. Because, the Jews had their own form of government that was subject to the conquering Romans. The Romans made a deal with the Jews that they could worship their own God and they could have their own judicial system even. The Sanhedrin Court was the equivalent of our supreme court. Nicodemus is referred to as a ruler of the Jews (he was one of them that ruled over them, does this ring a bell?).

Q. In regards to the words of God, what does this mean?

A. In the temple and the synagogues there are many references of Moses law being read. This is the word of God that is referred to in this context (the ten commandments were originally written by His own finger). Do pastors deliver a word of God? They certainly do, sometimes. They also deliver words that are not from God. If we read the Bible, we can be sure we have heard the word of God, when we listen to preaching (including pastors) we can be sure we heard from God . . . maybe, at least the part that was written in the Bible and read for a text.

Q. Outside of this passage, is there any scriptural support, or any other scripture that references a pastor being a ruler?

A. It is important to acknowledge that this chapter does not mention a pastor. It DOES mention someone who rules. Someone who rules would be the classic definition of a ruler. Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews (or Hebrews). This letter is written to the Jews (hence the name Hebrews). Nicodemus would qualify as a ruler in the context of this passage. A pastor would not. The Hebrews did not have separation of church and state. To my knowledge there is no occasion in the Bible that refers to a pastor as a ruler. The chain of command as far as government of the Jews was the Mosaic Law which included the Sanhedrin Court system of enforcement, which followed and enforced the Mosaic Law. This Mosaic Law was the word of God that is referred to in my opinion. The ruler refers to men like Nicodemus at different levels within that legal system. We also have the Christians that were also Hebrews that were still trying to fit into and under the umbrella of Judaism. This is the specific target of the letter to the Hebrews. Nicodemus was one of many of the rulers that they were admonished to obey. In addition to rulers of this sort they ALSO had the five fold ministry because they were Christians. Non-Christians Jews would of course not be concerned with the ministry. The five fold ministry is NEVER to my knowledge referred to as rulers of the church.

2. The meaning of souls, in this context:

Q. What does it mean to watch for your souls?

A. The soul is the very life in the context of Hebrews 13. These days we think immortal spirit as in the spirit that will spend eternity in heaven or hell. This is NOT the context of souls in this chapter in my opinion. Let me offer Strong's definition of souls pertinent to this use in Hebrews. Strong's says that the meaning of soul is distinguished from (meaning different from) the rational and immortal spirit. You seem to be confusing the context and believing that the rulers watch after our immortal spirit. The author did not mean that. He meant they watch after our life, literally our breath, because when you quit living, you also quit breathing, always. I'll post a couple of scriptures:

Bible, King James Version

Gen.2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam became a living soul. He went from a lifeless form, to a living (breathing) soul. This says nothing about his immortal soul, it is talking about his life that was absolutely mortal.

1Cor.15
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This scripture helps illustrate the difference in the mortal soul and the immortal soul. Jesus, the last Adam was made a quickening (or life-giving) spirit.

Rev.16
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

This is evidence that animals have souls. I personally don't believe they have eternal spirits, rather this is referring to the life that exists in the sea (which pretty well confirms that these living souls are not human).

I believe this is the context that the thirteenth chapter of Hebrews is written, and should be understood. I understand that it is not the popular version, but I believe it is the true version.

[Apostolic1ness]

Tithesmeister im just butting in here but what point are you trying to make with the above post? whats the argument?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Tithesmeister im just butting in here but what point are you trying to make with the above post? whats the argument?

I'm glad you asked. The argument is whether the ruler who watches for your soul, is a minister, or a government official. Also whether the soul is a physical life or an eternal soul.

I contend that the ruler was referring to the people that are over the Hebrews in the day, who were also Jews, (exemplified by Nicodemus) and NOT the Romans OR the pastor, as 1ofthechosen has professed.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:20 speaks of seven stars being held in the right hand of Jesus. Who is in the middle of a seven fluted oil lamp. This oil lamp is connected to these seven stars seated in His right hand. The seven stars are these seven angels which are messengers to the lamp, which are called out assemblies located in Asia Minor. The oil lamps, stars, and angels are all connected. Revelation 2:5 shows where one of the branches of the menorah is in danger of being removed, from the angel. The angel here is being rebuked and told that it has fallen, and needs to get things right. Are we to believe that the angel is a fallen angel over the city of Ephesus? No, it is a guiding star, Jude 1:12-13 false ministry is considered to be wandering stars. Stars in ancient times were used to plot a course, to seek correct direction. In Revelation the stars are found in the right hand of Christ the ancient of days. Which means Christ is in control, if these stars remain fixed, and therefore can continue to have the light unto their feet from the word which fuels the candlesticks. In Jude, the wandering stars are reserved for "darkness" which is a condition which is void of light, which is knowledge of God's word. These wandering stars are not in His hands but go as they please, under their own human will. They have no headship from their head which is Christ. Therefore, no headship, no light, no right hand position of authority, and lastly no knowledge.

Thank you Elder, excellent teaching.

Also thank you because you are someone who actually cares about people.

Jer 3:15 - And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I'm glad you asked. The argument is whether the ruler who watches for your soul, is a minister, or a government official. Also whether the soul is a physical life or an eternal soul.

I contend that the ruler was referring to the people that are over the Hebrews in the day, who were also Jews, (exemplified by Nicodemus) and NOT the Romans OR the pastor, as 1ofthechosen has professed.

good post