Revelation 18

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...

[shag]

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

will Jesus die more than once? the two witnesses are clearly not Jesus. Rev 11:8 says their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city where Jesus was crucified. also their bodies will not be put in graves. come on guys.....

[shag]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Beats me, that was way before my time

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).

Please explain? You understand it to be speaking literally of the literal altar at Herod's temple?

Also please explain how Revelation mentioning altar and temple proves anything regarding when it was written?

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.



Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.



This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...

No. Revelation is not quoting Matt, but they are the same thing. Matt is speaking directly to the people and the city by name, whereas in revelation it is doing the same thing but is using symbolic language to say the same thing.


Actually Rev 18 is in fact referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD70 and as pre the method of the book, it is using symbolic type language.


Jesus telling them that some of them would not die until the coming of the Son of man surely was referring to AD70.

The dating of Revelation can get bogged down and there are some points to both views, so it seems the internal evidence is what we should try to use to decided. There are several points to indicate an early date writing, not the least of which, the temple is still standing.