Revelation 18

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

[/U]

I dont believe this is speaking of a specific city of Babylon but rather the sinful world. Verse 24 says "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth"
how could the blood of all that were slain upon the earth be in Babylon? unless Babylon is referring to the sinful world.

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Bowas

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

But when Babylon fell in Rev. 18 Jesus comes in the next chapter.

Did Jesus come in 70ad?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Bowas

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

so your saying that Jerusalem is Babylon?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

so your saying that Jerusalem is Babylon?

Interesting how I added no real commentary on who I see is Babylon, but you inadvertently came to the same conclusion.
When we allow scripture to interpret scripture, we can minimize private interpretations.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But when Babylon fell in Rev. 18 Jesus comes in the next chapter.

Did Jesus come in 70ad?

Jesus has come many times throughout the Bible. Most common comings are when He came as a child in Bethlehem, and most Oneness believers believe He came as the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and I know for a fact He came into my life back in 1964, and He came again last Sunday in worship service. He comes and has come in many different ways for many different reasons. Just as he came in judgement in several Old testament accounts, He did come in a judgement against Jerusalem in AD70. I do not believe that is what is commonly taught as "the second coming,' as I see that as in our future.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Jesus has come many times throughout the Bible. Most common comings are when He came as a child in Bethlehem, and most Oneness believers believe He came as the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and I know for a fact He came into my life back in 1964, and He came again last Sunday in worship service. He comes and has come in many different ways for many different reasons. Just as he came in judgement in several Old testament accounts, He did come in a judgement against Jerusalem in AD70. I do not believe that is what is commonly taught as "the second coming,' as I see that as in our future.

So do you believe the 2nd coming/rapture is in Rev. 19?

[mizpeh]

My post should have said "Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an inhabited city and not an uninhabited city."

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...