UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Christianity itself, separates the church members from the larger culture.

Preach!

[derAlte]

Originally Posted by Costeon

There were standards that were only supported by basically one passage (pants on women and uncut hair for women, e.g.). That didn't seem like a strong scriptural foundation. It struck me that since these standards so separated the church members from the larger culture it would seem like there would be multiple passages to base the standard on.

Are you saying that because there seems to be only one Scripture for a holiness teaching, that that passage can be ignored? God put it in the Bible as a red herring to adhered to or ignored at will?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by derAlte

Are you saying that because there seems to be only one Scripture for a holiness teaching, that that passage can be ignored? God put it in the Bible as a red herring to adhered to or ignored at will?

I know you didn't ask me, but I seem to be butting in left and right anyway...

If we (seemingly) only have a single passage for a doctrine, we would be wise to dig deeper and see if our interpretation can hold up to scrutiny. When I was taught Deuteronomy 22:5, it was *taught* as if it said "women can't wear pants." Now anyone can read that passage and see clearly that it doesn't say that. So I sought out counsel from someone who was much more willing to spend the time digging deeper. The bottom line was we are not to mix the sexes and turn God's order on its head. I thought, "okay, now we're getting somewhere; that can be found throughout scripture." It's hard to fault a pastor who approaches it from a "this is so obvious" standpoint, but it's also hard to fault the pastor who thinks "we should worry about the inside first." After all, putting a skirt on a hateful, spiteful busybody of a woman is nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig. I think we would be wise to allow each pastor to prioritize and operate as he feels God has led him to do.

Oh, and to actually answer the question, no, I do not think God has put in red herrings to either adhere to or ignore. Again, not that you asked me. Ha!

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Christianity itself, separates the church members from the larger culture.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by derAlte

Are you saying that because there seems to be only one Scripture for a holiness teaching, that that passage can be ignored? God put it in the Bible as a red herring to adhered to or ignored at will?

I was relating something that happened almost 30 years ago.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Should a man have a pastor?

I do not believe the popular opinion that a person MUST have a Pastor to be saved. I've heard that preached over and over and simply do not believe it.

The head of every man is Christ. We are not the Catholic church. I do believe we should fellowship with the body. I do not believe it is required that every man have a Pastor.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

If a man's pastor chooses to have platform rules and dress codes is that wrong?

If a Pastor wants to impose his personal preference and create dress codes, he's certainly free to do so.

There's a Pastor I know who requires congregants to notify him of vacation plans. I know of another Pastor who requires, or did back in the mid/late 90s, congregants to disclose their paystubs or W2s to verify the tithes being paid are accurate. The same one during the same time would post names of those not paying tithes on a church bulletin board.

So Pastors can do a lot of things. Doesn't mean they're right or have any foundation in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

If a man is denied by the pastor to participate in the ministry of the local church for violating the platform rules, is the pastor wrong?

Again, if the Pastor wants to do so, he certainly may.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Should the man submit to the standard of the church?

I believe if the man chooses to remain a member of the church and desires to participate in the ministry, then absolutely, he should follow the rules.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

If the man leaves that church in search for another to accommodate his desire to participate in local church ministry is he wrong?

No. The man is not a slave or property of the Pastor. If he desires to attend another church, that's between that man and God. God is the head of the man, not the Pastor.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Should a man have a pastor?

If a man's pastor chooses to have platform rules and dress codes is that wrong?

If a man is denied by the pastor to participate in the ministry of the local church for violating the platform rules, is the pastor wrong?

Should the man submit to the standard of the church?

If the man leaves that church in search for another to accommodate his desire to participate in local church ministry is he wrong?

While these were very good questions, you avoided the subject of the post.

If a person doesn't abide by a Pastor's preferred dress code, did he repent and receive the HG as you did or no?

If a man grows facial hair, it was said he's in rebellion. Do you agree or not agree that the end result of rebellion is damnation and hell?

Do you agree or not agree that being carnally minded is death and the carnal mind is at enmity with God -- meaning a carnal person is lost?

[n david]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yes you are missing it.... we are not talking about a new concert... if I there was a saint in our church that knows what we believe and disregards it there is a good chance they are in rebellion... if you are submitted to a pastor it’s not a big deal to pick up a razor. My former pastor was against Christmas trees. I didn’t have the same view on them as he did... but guess what I just didn’t have one because I was submitted to him and the church. It doesn’t always have to be about me and I don’t always have to have it my way or take my toys and go home.

I don't believe I am missing it. In fact, you're proving my point even more.

You're saying the seasoned saint who grows facial hair is in rebellion.

What do you believe the end result of rebellion is? Don't be afraid. What is the end result of rebellion?

If you believe the end result of rebellion is death and hell (which it is) then you believe facial hair is a heaven/hell issue.

Accept it. Don't try to hid from it.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Ehud

I’m glad you mentioned leadership. How quickly are newcomers allowed into such roles? For instance, will your pastor take the word of another pastor he respects and fast track that process, or does he need to see the given person “in action” for a while prior to being allowed in such a role?

What leadership roles are we talking about?

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Any new person is 6 month minimum.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Around here it's 1 year min plus fruit.

Where is this 6mo or 1yr + model found in the Bible?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by n david

What leadership roles are we talking about?





Where is this 6mo or 1yr + model found in the Bible?

Hebrews 13:17 is a good start.