Why Sunday

[mfblume]

Well, seems like you have a bunch of converts to sabbatarianism. I'd like to see testimonies of the claims of everyone who has come to agree with you posted here for us to read! Who will start cooking all their food on Friday for the sabbath from now on? Can I get a witness?

As for me and my house we keep the body, and not the shadow.

I say this not in mockery, for I really am interested in seeing people publicize this change of doctrine for them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Well, seems like you have a bunch of converts to sabbatarianism. I'd like to see testimonies of the claims of everyone who has come to agree with you posted here for us to read! Who will start cooking all their food on Friday for the sabbath from now on? Can I get a witness?

As for me and my house we keep the body, and not the shadow.

I say this not in mockery, for I really am interested in seeing people publicize this change of doctrine for them.

Lol! All I am doing is trying to give a reasoned defense of what I believe is the sound doctrine of the apostolic faith and practice.

Not in mockery? Sounds like a wee bit of mockery in there, to be honest.

It also sounds like you are judging people for obeying the 4th commandment? Doesn't your own position prohibit that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Lol! All I am doing is trying to give a reasoned defense of what I believe is the sound doctrine of the apostolic faith and practice.

Not in mockery? Sounds like a wee bit of mockery in there, to be honest.

It also sounds like you are judging people for obeying the 4th commandment? Doesn't your own position prohibit that?

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Fair enough. But being strong or weak in faith is a reality, and I do believe ther eis weakness of faith in sabbath keeper on that issue when compared to those who claim otherwise. You obviously believe you are more advanced in this issue than I am, or you would not disagree with my stance, on thie issue. But I do claim that's what Paul spoke about by describing those weak in faith, for that is the context, and it's nothing personal. Neither is it anything to brag about, for Paul stated that the more he learned about what was true, the more he realized that he knew nothing. For God to speak to someone about an issue is nothing to boast about. While the legalist is warned to not judge, the enlightened are warned to not despise.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

It's not doing, and Paul addressed that in Colossians 2 as part of the touch not, taste not handle not ordinances of the elements of the world, which I know you claim are not what Paul meant by elements of the world.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

..if you are right in saying sabbath day is not fulfilled with a spiritual rest instead of the shadow.

But go for it! If that's what you see in the word, do so. I disagree with you on this in very strong terms. But we are not serving each other. We serve God. Blessings!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Fair enough. But being strong or weak in faith is a reality, and I do believe ther eis weakness of faith in sabbath keeper on that issue when compared to those who claim otherwise. You obviously believe you are more advanced in this issue than I am, or you would not disagree with my stance, on thie issue. But I do claim that's what Paul spoke about by describing those weak in faith, for that is the context, and it's nothing personal. Neither is it anything to brag about, for Paul stated that the more he learned about what was true, the more he realized that he knew nothing. For God to speak to someone about an issue is nothing to boast about. While the legalist is warned to not judge, the enlightened are warned to not despise.



It's not doing, and Paul addressed that in Colossians 2 as part of the touch not, taste not handle not ordinances of the elements of the world, which I know you claim are not what Paul meant by elements of the world.



As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.



..if you are right in saying sabbath day is not fulfilled with a spiritual rest instead of the shadow.

But go for it! If that's what you see in the word, do so. I disagree with you on this in very strong terms. But we are not serving each other. We serve God. Blessings!

Brother Blume,

If I understand the debate, you believe that all of the Ten Commandments but the one concerning the sabbath, are still in effect.

Esaias believes that ALL ten of the commandments including observing the sabbath are still in effect.

I believe you are both wrong. You are wrong about nine commandments, and Esaias is wrong about ten. Because I believe that the OLD covenant WAS the Ten Commandments.

I have already posted scripture that shows that the covenant was referred to as the Ten Commandments. But there are two. Then there is the fact that God ordered Moses to have an ark built to house the tables of stone.

Deut.10

[1] At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
[2] And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

God told Moses to build an ark.

What is an ark?

Let me quote Merriam Webster:

\ ˈärk \
Definition of ark (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : a boat or ship held to resemble that in which Noah and his family were preserved from the Flood
b : something that affords protection and safety

If you go with definition b, which I believe applies here, you actually have God telling Moses to build a structure that will provide protection and safety for the two “tables of stone” that the Ten Commandments were written on.

So it shouldn’t be any surprise that the structure built to protect the ”covenant” aka the Ten Commandments would come to be known as the Ark of the Covenant. It is this covenant that is referred to as the OLD covenant in Hebrews. The old covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Therefore the commandment to observe the sabbath is long gone. And so are the others. Now it is interesting that the other commandments are reiterated in the NT, but the admonition to observe the sabbath is not.

So Esaias and I agree on one thing. If the sabbath commandment is gone, or vanished, so are the others. Which brings up another key point in . . .

Hebrews 8

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

If the old covenant was ready to vanish away, some two thousand years ago, what are the chances that it is still hanging around today? Because if it was ready to vanish, that would mean all of the necessary conditions were met for it to vanish. So if this old covenant, that has vanished away, doesn’t refer to the covenant known as the Ten Commandments, or the Ten Commandments known as the covenant, then pray tell what covenant is this verse referring to?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother Blume,

If I understand the debate, you believe that all of the Ten Commandments but the one concerning the sabbath, are still in effect.

Esaias believes that ALL ten of the commandments including observing the sabbath are still in effect.

I believe you are both wrong. You are wrong about nine commandments, and Esaias is wrong about ten. Because I believe that the OLD covenant WAS the Ten Commandments.

I have already posted scripture that shows that the covenant was referred to as the Ten Commandments. But there are two. Then there is the fact that God ordered Moses to have an ark built to house the tables of stone.

Deut.10

[1] At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
[2] And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

God told Moses to build an ark.

What is an ark?

Let me quote Merriam Webster:

\ ˈärk \
Definition of ark (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : a boat or ship held to resemble that in which Noah and his family were preserved from the Flood
b : something that affords protection and safety

If you go with definition b, which I believe applies here, you actually have God telling Moses to build a structure that will provide protection and safety for the two “tables of stone” that the Ten Commandments were written on.

So it shouldn’t be any surprise that the structure built to protect the ”covenant” aka the Ten Commandments would come to be known as the Ark of the Covenant. It is this covenant that is referred to as the OLD covenant in Hebrews. The old covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Therefore the commandment to observe the sabbath is long gone. And so are the others. Now it is interesting that the other commandments are reiterated in the NT, but the admonition to observe the sabbath is not.

So Esaias and I agree on one thing. If the sabbath commandment is gone, or vanished, so are the others. Which brings up another key point in . . .

Hebrews 8

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

If the old covenant was ready to vanish away, some two thousand years ago, what are the chances that it is still hanging around today? Because if it was ready to vanish, that would mean all of the necessary conditions were met for it to vanish.

The old covenant is gone. NOt sure why you claim that I think it is not.

The old covenant was represented by the first tabernacle and you could not get into the second tabernacle if the first was still standing. So, the first tabernacle was removed as much as you can only get into the new covenant if the first is removed.

But if you think that the ten commandments are the old covenant, and claim that my belief that the nine are still in effect then I do not think the old passed away, you have to first prove that I believe the old covenant remains. I never said anything about the old covenant still being in effect, but directly the opposite. And when I said the nine are still in effect, I did not mean anything in the way that you claim I meant. I simply said murder is wrong as much as adultery, etc.

So if this old covenant, that has vanished away, doesn’t refer to the covenant known as the Ten Commandments, or the Ten Commandments known as the covenant, then pray tell what covenant is this verse referring to?

I never actually stated nine are in effect, as such. But I am not sure what you are proposing. What do you mean the Old Covenant in the form of the Ten Commandments passed away?

You agree that nine of the ten were reiterated by Jesus because they were not shadows. That's all that I meant by the fourth is changed into the spiritual rest. Esaias always said that I think one is abolished, but I never said that. I said the fourth is in effect spiritually since it was a foreshadow because they remain in what Jesus and the apostles presented.

The Old Covenant though is far more than the ten commandments. The Old Covenant is a body of covenant that was represented by Hagar and issued at Mount Sinai. It's everything that went forth from Mount Sinai, not just the ten commandments. It involved tabernacle/temple worship. Yes, you could say it is the ten commandments, because everything God gave additional to that was actually applications of the ten

It's more complex than saying that the ark was the ark of the covenant, therefore the ten commandments put inside the ark are the covenant, itself. It's true in one sense. The truth is that everything in the Law of 613 precepts are based on the Ten Commandments. The Ten commandments are the simple form and the rest of the law was all stemmed from them. So, everything Moses was given at Sinai stands for the ten. So, it's the same thing really.

Jesus broke it down further and said Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. That is basically what the ten commandments are, and in turn, is basically what everything else in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus are.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Therefore the commandment to observe the sabbath is long gone. And so are the others. Now it is interesting that the other commandments are reiterated in the NT, but the admonition to observe the sabbath is not.

So Esaias and I agree on one thing. If the sabbath commandment is gone, or vanished, so are the others.

This is the "new testament is the replacement legislation" view, maintained by Campbellites and some others. The problem is this view fails to identify the giving of the new legislation. "The new testament repeats x, y, and z." Actually it doesn't. There is no place in the new testament writings where an official repeal of the laws, commandments, statutes, and judgments took place. Nor where a replacement legislation took place. The new testament does, however, repeatedly affirm the continuing validity of God's instructions. Thus the new testament affirms the continuous existence of the laws of God. Were some changed in the transition from old COVENANT to new? Yes. The priesthood and law of sacrifice, atonement, and offerings was changed, for one. Yet these changes are predicted and prophesied in the old testament writings, and referenced in the new testament writings. Such is NOT the case with the Sabbath, the rest of the Decalogue, or a whole host of other instructions.

Case in point: bestiality is nowhere mentioned in the new testament as a forbidden activity. Using Tithemeister's hermeneutic, Jesus died and made bestiality completely lawful. This is where bad doctrine and bad hermeneutics lead.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.

Fascinating. I don't mean to be rude, but how is this any different than all the other "ex-whatever testimonies" we are all familiar with? Tried the Holy Ghost, it wrecked my life. Tried holiness it wrecked my life. Tried homeschooling, it ruined my family. Etc.

We prepare every Friday. The day goes smoothly. Sabbath is a "Feast of the Lord", a festival if you will. A nice meal, a day to relax, a day to focus more on God than we can during the other days (because we are no longer as busy on that day than on all the other days, what with work etc).

Preparing food a day in advance is "wracking"? Seriously? I would say there is certainly a transition period, like with ANY new habit, but seriously if Sabbath keeping is a burden you ain't doing it right.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.

Brother Blume, it seems illogical to me that the 10 commandments, which were written by the finger of God rather than dictated to Moses, are to be done away with.
They all are the culmination of loving God, and loving your neighbor:

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

As far as preparation being difficult, I don't believe cooking food in advance on Friday for two days will be a problem.
And then spending Saturday praying, reading, writing, taking walks, and spending time with my family will be a great preparation for Sunday worship.

I have a great advantage in that I am introverted, love to read and love to spend time at home and in nature.

My Sister texted me yesterday about going out to eat and to the mall on Saturday, I'm going to text her back and say "let's pack a picnic lunch, go the wildlife preserve and take a long walk."
The area I live in has many parks and preserves, not to mention beaches, rivers, and lakes, and the climate is so accommodating for taking long walks and enjoying nature.