Gay people in Church

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I perceive there are some underlying fundamental differences that might prove difficult to reconcile.

1) You argue that watching our new brothers and sisters as they grow spiritually is treating them with suspicion, which adds up to segregation, treating the saved like they’re still sinners, and the sin of judgment in your book.

No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc.

I’m sure gays are treated incorrectly in all kinds of churches. But it doesn’t happen with everybody, everywhere.

I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right.

2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.

You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.

Yes, they are entirely unrelated. Pedophilia (sexual/romantic attraction to prepubsecent children) is a sexual "orientation" all its own.

4) Here is the main problem: You are using the humanistic view of homosexuality, not the Apostolic view. Beneath it all, you have disassociated homosexual behavior from spiritual condition.

There is nothing in what I said that even remotely resembles "the humanistic view" of homosexuality (as if all humanists held the same view regarding homosexuality).

The Apostolic view is that all sin is a choice. There is no exception for homosexuality, that some people are born gay. It is the result of environment. That environment often includes some sort of sexual contact early in life, or very poor experiences in general with fathers/father figures.

No one here has said that sin was not a choice. Homosexual sin is a choice! Attraction (narrowly defined as the autonomic physical/emotional response to certain stimuli) is not a choice. But, of course, we're not talking about mere attraction here, we're talking about behavior.

I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.

There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.

NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me!

The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right?

What are you talking about???? No one here said anything about an innate condition!

Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?

Nonsense!

From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.

Never mind the fact that most child molestations are committed by males against females. There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia.

From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.

Generic accounts of "counselors"? Oh, so now you're promoting that psychology garbage! By the way, the same thing can be said of sexually deviant heterosexuals (e.g. those into BDSM, for example).

I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?

Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality. The unnatural attraction is not something one chooses. By asking your question, you again show that you really don't know what you're talking about. But let me indulge you here. Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin.

You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc.

Well, I think I understand what you're railing against here. I would consider it a favor if you would briefly fill me in on the specific actions that fit into this category of treatment. Then, contrast what you consider the wrong way with what you specifically do that is different, and elaborate on the results you are seeing.

I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right.

Judgmentalism rears its ugly head in a variety of circumstances.

NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me!

The "nonsense" coming in to play here is your equating my statements regarding spiritual oppression and persuasion with outright demon possession. Your petulant demand is wasted. When people embrace sin of any type, they remove the spiritual protection of God, and are spiritually assaulted by the devil. Their own flesh will carry them quite a ways into the wilderness of sin, but the continued acceptance of sin gradually opens the door for the sinner to be influenced by evil spirits. This principle applies to many forms of sin, not just the sexual.

There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia.

Pretty tough to prove or disprove. I daresay we could entertain ourselves by polling Apostolic preachers about this one.

Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality.

The ones I have known did.

Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin.

So, Chan, is there a spiritual aspect to gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin? Please describe it.

You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about!

Since you know what we're talking about, and I don't, I would expect that, rather than attempt to suppress discussion, you would welcome it, so that you could persuade the uninformed and misinformed in a confident and expository manner, and so that there would be fewer of us that remain in ignorance.