Firearms Refresher Course

[ChTatum]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Stephen wouldn't defend himself.

There is a big difference between defending yourself, and defending someone else, like your family.

Jesus turned the other cheek when He was smitten, but did get angry on behalf of others.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I can tell you that while I hope not to have to, I would get as violent as necessary to defend my wife and children.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

My, my. You are really against the rulership and power of God, aren't you? I pray God helps your family in time of crisis. I am sure they will rest easy knowing that if it comes, you will be calling 911 and grabbing your gun, instead of praying and relying on God. I mean, it is really unthinkable that an Apostolic would just believe in God....

Brother Strange, I would rather opt for prayer to the God, than to rely on Smith and Wesson. Jesus is the One who has ALL power and authority. He has never failed me yet.

I don't think that I have ever witnessed as little faith in a post in all of my life. There is NO faith without works. If you are not willing to defend your family that is about to be either killed, raped or robbed, you have ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH in either God or yourself.

Why don't you address my post above point by point.

Just one question to see if you have enough courage to answer this. What would you do if you walked in to find you little daugther or your wife with a knife to her throat being raped? What will you do? Will you just kneel down and pray for the man?

That is what you are saying. I can't think of anything that you could do or not do to show the utmost contempt for a loved one.

Answer: What would you do? You can't even hit the man upside the head. In fact, you could not even complicit with the police who would also be violent

QUESTION: WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I honestly think that you are stepping beyond the realm of New Testament scripture with you above post. I guess Stephen was a fool, as he did not fight to save himself amidst the stones that were hitting him. He rather prayed that God would not lay this thing done to the attackers charge. I guess Paul was a fool to allow himself to be captured and taken to Rome in bonds after he was already showed that it would happen. He could have at least taken up sword and given a good fight. I guess when Saul/Paul was catching all those Christians out of hiding, men women, and children, and dragging them off to prison that they should have took up arms and instituted a revolt.

Matthew, I have not spoken of defending myself.

What about all those that died during the Inquisition, or those that have been tortured for Christ without ever "fighting back". Was Richard Wurmbrand wrong to pray for his torturers instead of plotting an riot to destroy them?

I have no problem with dying as a martyr or suffering any other violence for whatever cause, especially for the cause of Christ.

No my Brother, You cannot kill your enemies and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. Vengeance, and justice for that matter, is not in our hands, but in Gods hands.

Yes you can. You defenitely can. No veagence is NOT our hands. That belongs to God alone. However justice and righteousness is in our hands. For instance, capital punishment for certain crimes is justice and it is godly. It is a demonstration of charity to society as a whole to carry out that execution. There are wars that you can engage in and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. In times like that, you love your neighbor MORE than yourself especially when you are called upon to give YOUR OWN LIFE for the cause of the greater good...which is charity in its highest representation.

And by the way, no one here said we would not protect our loved ones.

Yes, Lost said that he would not. He said that he would only trust God and do nothing himself. I hope that he has told his wife not to depend on him to protect her from a rapist.

Not speaking for others, but what I have said is that to the taking of a life is not an option. I would give mine for the sake of my families if need be. But to use fatal force would be unbiblical to a New Testament Saint. God does NOT call the New Testament saint to "take up arms". This is an Old Testament shadow of a New Testament spiritual war. We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.

It is not a shadow at all. Men have been in spiritual warfare since Adam. It was no shadow, it was very tangible and real. You are arguing a position from NO scripture in this regard.

But using your logic, we would not wrestle against flesh and blood even to protect our families, though you are now saying that you would...if that is your interpretation of wrestling. But that is not what that scripture is talking about.

So, would you wrestle to protect your family even since the scripture says NOT to wrestle?

[Coonskinner]

My old Granny maynot be a theologian, but she does make a lot of sense...

I have heard her say many times, "I'll put up with about anything to keep peace in the house of God, but the devil and his imps needn't think they're fixin' to run over me."

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I don't think that I have ever witnessed as little faith in a post in all of my life. There is NO faith without works. If you are not willing to defend your family that is about to be either killed, raped or robbed, you have ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH in either God or yourself.

Why don't you address my post above point by point.

Just one question to see if you have enough courage to answer this. What would you do if you walked in to find you little daugther or your wife with a knife to her throat being raped? What will you do? Will you just kneel down and pray for the man?

That is what you are saying. I can't think of anything that you could do or not do to show the utmost contempt for a loved one.

Answer: What would you do? You can't even hit the man upside the head. In fact, you could not even complicit with the police who would also be violent

QUESTION: WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

First, what type "works" is James speaking of? Works from the flesh or from the Spirit? Brother Strange, you know James is not talking about showing your faith by killing an attacker. I have never in all my years heard a preacher in any apostolic pulpit ever suggest what you are here. NEVER!

Actually, I have experienced attacks before. Both me and a brother were attacked by a man who had been in and out of prison most of his life. He prided himself on his ability to street fight. From all I heard, he was very good at it. For reasons we never reallty knew, this man attacked a brother that was with me. That brother got his finger broken when he was hit from behind. Yet this brother never spoke a word or lifted a finger against his attacker. What did I do? I put myself between this brother and his attacker. I did not lift a finger or raise my voice. The Lord gave me words to say that calmed the man and caused him to walk away. Those there that day knew it was the Lord that did this. The man was in a heated rage before I spoke those words. Oh, by the way, the brother was raised to never fight back. He was told to always, in all instances, trust the Lord. The enraged man wanted to pound this brother. But Jesus stopped him, DEAD in his steps!

Another time I felt to go to the Wal-Mart in my town. This was very unusual because I HATE to shop. When I went in I saw a woman who had visited the church a couple of times. She was with a check-out girl, and I saw she was crying. I went to her and asked if I could help. She told me her husband was very drunk and had told her he would kill her when she got home. The cashier, a friend of hers, was pleading with her not to go home. She refused and said she had to go. I told her I would go there also. I arrived just as she did. True to his word, he went after her when she entered her home. I followed right behind and stopped him. How? By praying in Jesus’ name against the spirit that was tormenting him. The Spirit of God caught him and he immediately ceased from his attack. Later this man became as sober as a judge (however sober that is?). He began to cry as I laid hands on him and began to pray for his deliverance. Soon he apologized to his wife and went around his house pouring out every bottle of liquor he had. Before I left we gathered together, held hands, and prayed for Jesus’ peace to rule in that home. No violence needed here; just Jesus!

I can tell you more if you wish. See I KNOW that Jesus always comes through when we let Him! I KNOW it because He promised He would!

Brother, this was not in my old man. I used to have a hot temper. I used to fight and scuffle. I used to not trust Jesus because I did not know Him. But once I was Born Again, Jesus began to change me. Do I fail? Sometimes. But not like I did when I first began walking with the Lord. But though a man may fail, Jesus never—NEVER—does!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

You sure will if you have at least a half ounce of God in you.

So the apostles and all in the early church did not have an ounce of God in them? Really? That is what you believe?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

So the apostles and all in the early church did not have an ounce of God in them? Really? That is what you believe?

You folks are confusing sufering personally for the Gospel's sake with defending the helpless, such as your children.

Ever read the verse that says what God thinks about a man that doesn't provide for his own?

One thing a man must provide is protection.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Stephen wouldn't defend himself.

There is a big difference between defending yourself, and defending someone else, like your family.

Jesus turned the other cheek when He was smitten, but did get angry on behalf of others.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I can tell you that while I hope not to have to, I would get as violent as necessary to defend my wife and children.

Originally Posted by retsambeW

Agreed.

Angry? The Bible says, "Be ye angry, and sin not..." (Eph 4:26). Notice, "SIN NOT." Jesus did not get angry and kill anyone. It is a misrepresentation of Him to even suggest so.

So why do we not find the early church practicing your declaration? Such violence, regardless for one’s self or for another soul, was foreign to the church until the time of Constantine. But can we really say that his church was “the Church”?

The NT tells of Christians being killed and physically abused, yet never one time do we see any in the Church say what you do here. So who should have a different stance? Them or you?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Angry? The Bible says, "Be ye angry, and sin not..." (Eph 4:26). Notice, "SIN NOT." Jesus did not get angry and kill anyone. It is a misrepresentation of Him to even suggest so.

So why do we not find the early church practicing your declaration? Such violence, regardless for one’s self or for another soul, was foreign to the church until the time of Constantine. But can we really say that his church was “the Church”?

The NT tells of Christians being killed and physically abused, yet never one time do we see any in the Church say what you do here. So who should have a different stance? Them or you?

I could post verses describing the anger of Christ, but it wouldn't convince you. And I never said He killed anyone.

I can see this is not a productive discussion for me, so I will concede your superior spirituality and just request that you pray for "such a worm as I."

Be blessed.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

You folks are confusing sufering personally for the Gospel's sake with defending the helpless, such as your children.

Ever read the verse that says what God thinks about a man that doesn't provide for his own?

One thing a man must provide is protection.

Coonskinner, this is out of context. Look:

1 Timothy 5:4-8
(4) But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
(5) Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
(6) But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
(7) And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
(8) But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This is speaking of a family’s responsibility of benevolence for their mother’s or for related widows, not for a man to physically kill to protect his home.