Firearms Refresher Course

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Rendering evil for evil is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 5:38-39 when the cheek is hit it is left to you to react.

No it's not, because the issue is intent. If I raise my hand to stop someone from hitting me, that is not retribution. If someone hits me in the face and out of anger I hit him back, that is retribution. If someone starts hitting me or is trying to hit me and I want to keep him from harming me, that is not retribution.

Same thing when someone steals your coat you are to also give him your cloak. If the military compels you to go a mile you're to go two. You see how this all unfolds to be non-reactive. If they even take from you (property) you are to give them what you have left.

if someone steals your coat and you steal his back or key his car over it, that is retribution. If someone is trying to steal your coat and you are holding on to it so he can't take it, that is not retribution.

Can you show where vengeance means there is a space of time lapse before you retaliate?

Retaliation is NOT self defense nor is it the act of protecting the life of someone else. It's the act of preventing harm or further harm.

Vengeance Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.
www.dictionary.com

Retribution

1. Something justly deserved; recompense.
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.

These are about pay back. They have nothing to do with safe keeping a family member from harm by preventing it or stopping it.

It's pay back...REpayment. Getting even.

Could you show me how you get that from Matthew 5:38-48?

I didn't say I got anything from this verse. Im defining what retribution means. In fact I said we are NOT talking about blowing someone away for stepping on your daisies. I said we are NOT talking about doing some act because someone simply transgressed against you. I said we are NOT. Get it? I did not GET something. I am saying we can't do something TO someone just because they transgressed us. Are you saying we can?

Also do you know what's being said in Romans 12:14?

Rom 12:14 Bless them which PERSECUTE you: bless, and curse not.

Yes, I do.

The Greek word that is used for the English word PERSECUTE means to pursue (in a hostile manner). How do you separate personal (single person) defense and plural (family members) defense? What about countries? Iraq, Saddam Hussein, Osama Ben Laden? By your measure we are totally going after them "after the fact" so every solider (by your measure) is a murderer?

Well first of all I think the context is about religious persecution. Second it is talking about the individual. I really can't see that this verse would mean that you allow an individual to beat the mess out of your wife or kid and rape them while you are standing their blessing them. Do you? It doesn't say you can't try to keep someone from harming family members.

At the same time someone will quote scriptures that tell us we are responsible to take care of the family too.

On Osama...if someone is going after him to exact revenge, they are wrong. If someone is going after them in an effort to try to prevent more deaths then that is NOT retribution.

Bingo! There it is Praxeas, you just said it. I have stop more garbage from going down with verbal commands and hand actions. I have pried people off of each without even leaving a bruise. I have used my body as a human shield between myself and an angry dude trying to stab his girlfriend in a bar.

And if you can do that, that is great. But if you are unable to do that, you might have to use something else.

Prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost goes a long way. The same power that casts out devils and binds a demon possessed person without you having to choke or throttle them. Is the same power that can enable you to stop something bad from happening. I seen it happen, I've had it proven to me by the man who baptized me in Jesus name. He had a drunk employee attack him in his living room and I went to stop the man, my minister friend said Brother Dominic don't you do anything, and with that old Brother Harris took his large hand and laid it on the man's head and prayed in Jesus name, and the man went sober. Stone cold sober. It works!

I believe it, but faith did not prevent Paul from being stoned near to death. Faith and prayer got Peter out of prison, but not BEFORE he was beaten.

Now wouldn't that be a shame? I know police officers who work here in Miami and Fort Lauderdale, and they always tell me "Brother Benincasa, I pray everyday that I am never in a position that I would have to use my weapon."

I tell them what I have told you here. There's no way around it.

I think that is what I said actually....as I said, they regret it AND as I said sometimes there is no way around it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Rendering evil for evil is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 5:38-39 when the cheek is hit it is left to you to react.

No it's not, because the issue is intent. If I raise my hand to stop someone from hitting me, that is not retribution. If someone hits me in the face and out of anger I hit him back, that is retribution. If someone starts hitting me or is trying to hit me and I want to keep him from harming me, that is not retribution.

Same thing when someone steals your coat you are to also give him your cloak. If the military compels you to go a mile you're to go two. You see how this all unfolds to be non-reactive. If they even take from you (property) you are to give them what you have left.

if someone steals your coat and you steal his back or key his car over it, that is retribution. If someone is trying to steal your coat and you are holding on to it so he can't take it, that is not retribution.

Can you show where vengeance means there is a space of time lapse before you retaliate?

Retaliation is NOT self defense nor is it the act of protecting the life of someone else. It's the act of preventing harm or further harm.

Vengeance Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.
www.dictionary.com

Retribution

1. Something justly deserved; recompense.
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.

These are about pay back. They have nothing to do with safe keeping a family member from harm by preventing it or stopping it.

It's pay back...REpayment. Getting even.

Could you show me how you get that from Matthew 5:38-48?

I didn't say I got anything from this verse. Im defining what retribution means. In fact I said we are NOT talking about blowing someone away for stepping on your daisies. I said we are NOT talking about doing some act because someone simply transgressed against you. I said we are NOT. Get it? I did not GET something. I am saying we can't do something TO someone just because they transgressed us. Are you saying we can?

Also do you know what's being said in Romans 12:14?

Rom 12:14 Bless them which PERSECUTE you: bless, and curse not.

Yes, I do.

The Greek word that is used for the English word PERSECUTE means to pursue (in a hostile manner). How do you separate personal (single person) defense and plural (family members) defense? What about countries? Iraq, Saddam Hussein, Osama Ben Laden? By your measure we are totally going after them "after the fact" so every solider (by your measure) is a murderer?

Well first of all I think the context is about religious persecution. Second it is talking about the individual. I really can't see that this verse would mean that you allow an individual to beat the mess out of your wife or kid and rape them while you are standing their blessing them. Do you? It doesn't say you can't try to keep someone from harming family members.

At the same time someone will quote scriptures that tell us we are responsible to take care of the family too.

On Osama...if someone is going after him to exact revenge, they are wrong. If someone is going after them in an effort to try to prevent more deaths then that is NOT retribution.

Bingo! There it is Praxeas, you just said it. I have stop more garbage from going down with verbal commands and hand actions. I have pried people off of each without even leaving a bruise. I have used my body as a human shield between myself and an angry dude trying to stab his girlfriend in a bar.

And if you can do that, that is great. But if you are unable to do that, you might have to use something else.

Prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost goes a long way. The same power that casts out devils and binds a demon possessed person without you having to choke or throttle them. Is the same power that can enable you to stop something bad from happening. I seen it happen, I've had it proven to me by the man who baptized me in Jesus name. He had a drunk employee attack him in his living room and I went to stop the man, my minister friend said Brother Dominic don't you do anything, and with that old Brother Harris took his large hand and laid it on the man's head and prayed in Jesus name, and the man went sober. Stone cold sober. It works!

I believe it, but faith did not prevent Paul from being stoned near to death. Faith and prayer got Peter out of prison, but not BEFORE he was beaten.

Now wouldn't that be a shame? I know police officers who work here in Miami and Fort Lauderdale, and they always tell me "Brother Benincasa, I pray everyday that I am never in a position that I would have to use my weapon."

I tell them what I have told you here. There's no way around it.

I think that is what I said actually....as I said, they regret it AND as I said sometimes there is no way around it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.

If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.

WOULD you use violence to stop an assualt in progress if violence is your only recourse? If you had a weapon, and it was the only means to stop an attack, would you use it?

Imagine if someone with a gun was at Virginia Tech...they could have stopped that guy from possibly sending others to hell too.

And my point is, in the course of resorting to violence death MIGHT occur.

If someone must die, would you rather it be a son or daughter or wife than that lost soul? Yes what a difficult question, but that's really NOT the issue. Because you never know what you might do in that situation. The question is does the bible forbid using violence, even violence that could result in death, to save family members from harm?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That is all going to defend on your defintion of "attacker" and "defender".

Excuse me but language is language, it doesn't matter what I feel the definition is I must except the true meaning of words. If you are saying that a person is being attacked, and then you attack the attacker, both of you are engaged in what is called mortal combat, which means fighting to the death. Why? Because you have told us that you would fight with intent to use deadly force. You're no longer trying to prevent anything because preventative is before the fact and not after. During the crime you will be in the vengeance mode. Let's understand the word, vengeance means...


Vengeance \Venge"ance\, n. [F. vengeance, fr. venger to avenge,
L. vindicare to lay claim to, DEFEND, avenge, fr. vindex a claimant, defender, avenger, the first part of which is of
uncertain origin, and the last part akin to dicere to say.
See Diction, and cf. Avenge, Revenge, Vindicate.]
1. Punishment inflicted in return for an injury or an
offense; retribution; -- often, in a bad sense, passionate
or unrestrained revenge.

As far as Webster’s' 1913 dictionary is concerned what the Bible speaks against is exactly what you claim is right and good for a Christian to defend their families with deadly force. Vengeance is the Lord's ONLY, and not ours. Those people in 1913 would have disagreed with you when they looked in their dictionaries and found that to defend someone in mortal combat is retaliating in vengeance. Therefore it is not what Jesus sanctioned.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As I said before...I did not just say "prevent" but I also said stop.

To stop someone or something is not using deadly force, but simply stopping something that has been placed in motion. I stop my car; I stop a child from running out in the street, and stop an angry husband from putting his fist through a car window. Stopping someone or something is far from using deadly force.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Law enforcement often end up stoping crimes in the proces of being committed.

You're correct in your choice of words by using the word "often" they often stop crimes in the process of being committed. This means it's frequently done and therefore we don't have a record of people being shot to death by law enforcement.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They often have to subdue individuals by violent force. And if they feel their life is threatened can use deadly force.

The law enforcement agent is not going out with this in mind everyday. The main focus of the officer is NOT to get into a situation at all cost. This must be the main focus. Even a solider while around civilians in a foreign land must keep as a main focus that to make sure that nothing they do with cause a situation to escalate. True prevention to make sure that every precaution is made before a situation gets out of hand. If we stay focused on Jesus Christ while the winds and waves are contrary He will be able to pull us out.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I have seen many times a guy was driving towards a cop in his car and the officer felt his life was being threatened. He and the other cops open fire to kill so they can stop him from continuing being a threat

Oh my lands!!! Where do you live? Bagdad?

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Prax,

From my POV, "Love Your Enemies" supersedes any attempt to take the life of another person for their acts against yourself or your family. If they are enemies of my wife, they are my enemies, and I am commanded to love them. One cannot fufill the command to love their enemies while taking their life at the same time.

But just so you have the balance, One full of love can love their enemy and at the same time grab hold of him and keep him from hurting the wife, the attacker, or himself, and have no anger towards the attacker that would cause him to do bodily harm to him.

Very beautiful point.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Prax,

From my POV, "Love Your Enemies" supersedes any attempt to take the life of another person for their acts against yourself or your family. If they are enemies of my wife, they are my enemies, and I am commanded to love them. One cannot fufill the command to love their enemies while taking their life at the same time.

First of all I am NOT talking about doing something to someone for what they have done,. I am talking about keeping someone from doing harm or stopping them in the course of doing harm.

Second of all, even God is love yet that does not stop him from taking a life. I wonder if one can keep the command to love you neighbor as yourself and yet allow that neighbor to be physically harmed even to the point of death when you had the ability to stop it and when that only way to do so was to use violence...even violene that could result in death. Love you neighbors and enemies does not just apply to taking a life. It applies to doing any sort of harm, phsycial or verbal. It means not lashin out at them. Do we love our enemies when we ban them? :-) Or is it necessary yet nothing personal? We don't ban people because we don't love them. We can still love them, but sometimes it's something that has to be done for the greater good of others.

But just so you have the balance, One full of love can love their enemy and at the same time grab hold of him and keep him from hurting the wife, the attacker, or himself, and have no anger towards the attacker that would cause him to do bodily harm to him.

That is my point. But only in an ideal world can you just tap someone on the shoulder and say "excuse me, can you stop pummeling your wifes face in?"

For what ever reason...they might be armed...they might be bigger and stronger or younger than you (in you case) and if you just tried to pull them off you might be rendered useless to help that person any further. Sometimes physical violence is the only recourse. It does not mean you have to kill them, but it does mean you might end up killing them or bringing them close to death

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Oh my lands!!! Where do you live? Bagdad?

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Sorry, but that there was FUNNY!!!!!!!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

So that IS the command... to love your enemy. NOT to "let them do what they will to house and home without lifting a finger to stop them".
Sounds simple to me.

Mat 5:40-42

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

It looks like you must allow the offence to happen while praying for the offenders. I remember a preacher who preached that Paul when he was Saul must have had a lot of those he persecuted tell him, "Brother Saul, we are praying for you, we know Brother Saul that the Lord Jesus wants you too to be saved." I thought that was awesome.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

WOULD you use violence to stop an assualt in progress if violence is your only recourse? If you had a weapon, and it was the only means to stop an attack, would you use it?

Imagine if someone with a gun was at Virginia Tech...they could have stopped that guy from possibly sending others to hell too.

And my point is, in the course of resorting to violence death MIGHT occur.

If someone must die, would you rather it be a son or daughter or wife than that lost soul? Yes what a difficult question, but that's really NOT the issue. Because you never know what you might do in that situation. The question is does the bible forbid using violence, even violence that could result in death, to save family members from harm?

Sorry too hypothetical... I do not carry such a weapon... If I did my intent would not be to kill.

I would die trying to prevent death to occur in a family crisis.

I wholeheartedly agree we cannot predict exactly what we would do in any given situation... hence we have an advocate with the Father.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all I am NOT talking about doing something to someone for what they have done,. I am talking about keeping someone from doing harm or stopping them in the course of doing harm.

Second of all, even God is love yet that does not stop him from taking a life. I wonder if one can keep the command to love you neighbor as yourself and yet allow that neighbor to be physically harmed even to the point of death when you had the ability to stop it and when that only way to do so was to use violence...even violene that could result in death. Love you neighbors and enemies does not just apply to taking a life. It applies to doing any sort of harm, phsycial or verbal. It means not lashin out at them. Do we love our enemies when we ban them? :-) Or is it necessary yet nothing personal? We don't ban people because we don't love them. We can still love them, but sometimes it's something that has to be done for the greater good of others.


That is my point. But only in an ideal world can you just tap someone on the shoulder and say "excuse me, can you stop pummeling your wifes face in?"

For what ever reason...they might be armed...they might be bigger and stronger or younger than you (in you case) and if you just tried to pull them off you might be rendered useless to help that person any further. Sometimes physical violence is the only recourse. It does not mean you have to kill them, but it does mean you might end up killing them or bringing them close to death

Prax,

No matter how many stories you tell of impossible odds, it just is not enough to biblically say that it is ok to take someones life. We are not God, thus all we are commanded to do is Love one another even as Christ has Loved us. If God wants to step in and strike someone dead, that is his business. But I am just not seeing the scriptural proof where you can Love your enemy and yet kill him at the same time.

I am bowing out this time, as it is all becoming circular at this point. We all seem to have made our stand on what we believe. I do not look at anyone any less spiritual, or more spiritual, as has been suggested. I just have not seen enough scriptural evidence that would change that Jesus stated "Love your enemies".