I respectfully disagree with your assessment of one's ability to not be angry and love their enemy while grabbing an attacker to keep him from hurting their wife.
You requested scripture that shows where the use of deadly force is OK.
Now I'm asking you to provide scripture that shows where its OK to use ANY kind of force, including grabbing, against one's enemies.
Grabbing an attacker would definitely NOT be gentle, rather, it would be forceful.
Where is your scriptural justification for this? Did Jesus do this?
Turn around is fair play.
My theory: nobody but nobody follows the scriptures in every detail at every moment of their born-again lives. Even with all the talk of it not being possible under our own power, but letting Christ work in us, even that doesn't work, in every detail at every moment. We may think our flesh has been crucified, but like it or not, that flesh has a nasty habit of resurrecting now and then!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I gave him what he asked for. He must be on another thread and hasn't seen it yet, but since I have to get up very early in the morning, you will have to continue without me until tomorrow afternoon.....LOL!
Goodnight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost and Found
CONTEXT!! CONTEXT!! Here is what it says in CONTEXT:
1 Timothy 5:3-8
(3) Honor widows that are widows indeed.
(4) But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
(5) Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
(6) But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
(7) And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
(8) But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Here, this may be easier:
Quote: 1 Timothy 5:3-8 AMP
(3) [Always] treat with great consideration and give aid to those who are truly widowed (solitary and without support).
(4) But if a widow has children or grandchildren, see to it that these are first made to understand that it is their religious duty [to defray their natural obligation to those] at home, and make return to their parents or grandparents [for all their care by contributing to their maintenance], for this is acceptable in the sight of God.
(5) Now [a woman] who is a real widow and is left entirely alone and desolate has fixed her hope on God and perseveres in supplications and prayers night and day,
(6) Whereas she who lives in pleasure and self-gratification [giving herself up to luxury and self-indulgence] is dead even while she [still] lives.
(7) Charge [the people] thus, so that they may be without reproach and blameless.
(8) If anyone fails to provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his own family, he has disowned the faith [by failing to accompany it with fruits] and is worse than an unbeliever [who performs his obligation in these matters].
Sister, your usage of Paul's writing is completely out of context. Paul is speaking of a family's reasonability to monetarily take care of the widows in their family.
Reading passages out of context leads to all kinds of unbiblical things. Even to believing that Jesus thinks it is okay for His kids to kill people.
HeavenlyOne, I did respond to your inquiry last night.
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The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
My theory: nobody but nobody follows the scriptures in every detail at every moment of their born-again lives. Even with all the talk of it not being possible under our own power, but letting Christ work in us, even that doesn't work, in every detail at every moment. We may think our flesh has been crucified, but like it or not, that flesh has a nasty habit of resurrecting now and then!
I agree wholeheartedly.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
My theory: nobody but nobody follows the scriptures in every detail at every moment of their born-again lives. Even with all the talk of it not being possible under our own power, but letting Christ work in us, even that doesn't work, in every detail at every moment. We may think our flesh has been crucified, but like it or not, that flesh has a nasty habit of resurrecting now and then!
I completely understand what you are saying here. Life is all about making the right choices when they are presented. It’s all about ‘choose you this day….’
The Bible says that there is a difference between the natural man, the spiritual man, and the fleshly man. The natural man is a sinner before Jesus. The spiritual man is the new man made after Jesus. The fleshly man is a spiritually immature believer who battles fleshly (sinful) habits learned during his natural existence (See 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 3:1-3). This is why all Christians are called to walk toward perfection (maturity) in Jesus Christ. To say a person is weak in an area does not give them license to continue on in that area (See Romans 6:1-2). Such admittance should cause one to go to their knees. Because our old natural man is dead and buried, Paul indicated that we were to no longer walk in our old nature’s ways. What one must do to free themselves from their old sin habits is to daily—moment by moment—destroy the residue of sin from their new spiritual man. This takes Jesus! Such action is juxtapositional to walking toward maturity in Christ. Such maturity is demonstrated by our ongoing eradication of sin from our spiritual man (See Romans 6:3-23).
I believe such maturity is a life-long process of always becoming! But becoming like Jesus should be our life’s goal! Am I there yet? No! Am I closer? Yes, through Jesus I am closer everyday!
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The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
CONTEXT!! CONTEXT!! Here is what it says in CONTEXT:
Here, this may be easier:
Sister, your usage of Paul's writing is completely out of context. Paul is speaking of a family's reasonability to monetarily take care of the widows in their family.
Reading passages out of context leads to all kinds of unbiblical things. Even to believing that Jesus thinks it is okay for His kids to kill people.
See, I knew you'd say I was taking it out of context, but I don't believe Paul was admonishing men to care only monetarily for their own family.
See, perhaps that's what he meant in speaking about others, like the widows and fatherless, but he didn't say that one was worse than an infidel for not providing for those people.
Paul wasn't specific, except to say that if a man doesn't provide (this is an action verb here), he is worse than an infidel. I don't believe Paul was just referring to monetary commitment by the man to his family. Men do that all the time but don't care for their families in any other way. I call them 'deadbeat dads', even if they do pay the child support.
According to you, as long as the support is made, the man is ok. Well, he's not. He's not providing for his own in all the other ways necessary, thus he is worse than an infidel, as Paul said.
Men are not admonished to care for others the same way they provide for their own.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Sorry this line is very unclear to me. I think most would kill before, during or after the rape... I know this would be my inclination without the help of God...
BTW no one is saying you should not stop him from raping.
I watched a show last night on CourtTV that documented 911 calls in various situations, and one such event was a woman who was home alone with a broken ankle, calling that she believed someone was trying to get inside her house cause she heard noises on the side of her house and her dogs were barking.
The dispatch was getting help for her when the woman suddenly changed the tone of her voice to pure fear as she screamed out 'WHO ARE YOU??' over and over, then screaming 'STOP! DON'T! LEAVE ME ALONE!!' as her voice seemed to get further from the phone.
You can hear the tone of a man's voice as she's screaming 'PLEASE STOP!' over and over. Although it was TV and happened a while ago, my heart was stopped for this woman and what was taking place.
This went on the entire time until help arrived, and they caught the man in the act of raping her. Of course, he was arrested and sentenced to 28 years in prison.
But I have to wonder from some here who don't advocate the use of deadly force if they would have done nothing other than calling 911 if this happened to their wife or daughter. The guy who did this was huge, according to the police reporting the story, and it took 5 cops to get him off the woman.
So....think about this and think about your wife or children screaming those words. Do you just call 911 and let the cops handle it, or do you do anything in your power, including the use of deadly force, to stop the perp from hurting your family?
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.
Loving my enemies isn't my problem. It's a problem when loving my enemies is more important than loving and protecting my family.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
I hope you don't ever have to find out just what those words really mean.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.
If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.
No offense intended, just being real here, but would you replace 'me' in the above statement with 'one of my children'?
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
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