I for one think the idea that someone would rather side with someone that is a homosexual, than a person that is just too strict in his interpretation of the Holy Bible is very telling of where that person stands.
I am really finding this difficult to grasp here. One person takes the word of God, and lives it too strictly, and expects others to do the same. The other blatantly rejects nature itself, and does that which is unnatural, and an abomination to God. There is no comparison!
I generally agree. However:
1) If a person has had a negative experience with a "legalist" AND...
2) Not much experience around "gays" or a single positive experience with, say a "gay" coworker or such...
... then that person may tend to weight their judgments a little heavily to one side.
1) If a person has had a negative experience with a "legalist" AND...
2) Not much experience around "gays" or a single positive experience with, say a "gay" coworker or such...
... then that person may tend to weight their judgments a little heavily to one side.
But legalism is not simply trying too hard to obey God. Theologically, it is believing that following the law is how one is saved. Paul shoots it down nicely in Galatians 3. Legalism masquerades as righteousness and salvation, while cursing (says Paul) those who fall for it. Insidious.
Of course, nobody here says that's how you're saved. It's by repenting, being baptized in water in Jesus' name (making sure your baptizer doesn't use the dreaded "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" wording, or it won't "take"), being filled with the Holy Ghost. speaking in tongues, and by following all the rules for the rest of your life. Only they may not tell you that last part right away. That comes later. And exactly which rules to follow is subject to much debate, of course.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
But legalism is not simply trying too hard to obey God. Theologically, it is believing that following the law is how one is saved. Paul shoots it down nicely in Galatians 3. Legalism masquerades as righteousness and salvation, while cursing (says Paul) those who fall for it. Insidious.
Of course, nobody here says that's how you're saved. It's by repenting, being baptized in water in Jesus' name (making sure your baptizer doesn't use the dreaded "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" wording, or it won't "take"), being filled with the Holy Ghost. speaking in tongues, and by following all the rules for the rest of your life. Only they may not tell you that last part right away. That comes later. And exactly which rules to follow is subject to much debate, of course.
Even if your skewed version were correct, it would still be miles ahead of homosexuality.
Even if your skewed version were correct, it would still be miles ahead of homosexuality.
In defence of Timmy, not that he asked for nor even needs my help...
His version is not all that "skewed." It may be, and I hope that this is the case, that what he describes is different from your experience. His précis does describe what a very large number of people have also described as their experiences.
Given the fact that we are failing to retain our young people and even most of our converts I think it's healthy for us to re-evaluate the way we do things. In other words, are we coming up short of God's expectations in some way?
Rather than looking at the "legalist" as the one who has "gone the extra mile," I think Timmy is suggesting that the "legalist" has simply "gone the wrong way."
In defence of Timmy, not that he asked for nor even needs my help...
His version is not all that "skewed." It may be, and I hope that this is the case, that what he describes is different from your experience. His précis does describe what a very large number of people have also described as their experiences.
Given the fact that we are failing to retain our young people and even most of our converts I think it's healthy for us to re-evaluate the way we do things. In other words, are we coming up short of God's expectations in some way?
Rather than looking at the "legalist" as the one who has "gone the extra mile," I think Timmy is suggesting that the "legalist" has simply "gone the wrong way."
Pelathais,
Are you saying that the reason we are not keeping our new converts and our young people is the fault of our positions on being a separated and readily identifiable, spiritually speaking, people? Must we compromise our uniqueness to retain what the power of the blood is supposed to keep? I honestly think the reason we are struggling, like most other groups, is the cultural propensity for post modern thought and moral relativism. I have found that the genuinely hungry stick. Those who are following emotion or a specific urgent need outside of salvation seldom hang around. I have not had any that have said oh it was the legalism that drove me away. Have you heard that?
Are you saying that the reason we are not keeping our new converts and our young people is the fault of our positions on being a separated and readily identifiable, spiritually speaking, people?
No, not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by philjones
Must we compromise our uniqueness to retain what the power of the blood is supposed to keep? I honestly think the reason we are struggling, like most other groups, is the cultural propensity for post modern thought and moral relativism. I have found that the genuinely hungry stick. Those who are following emotion or a specific urgent need outside of salvation seldom hang around. I have not had any that have said oh it was the legalism that drove me away. Have you heard that?
Yes I have. And it usually happens where the "legalism" is stressed in such a way that you have manipulation and not discipleship. I've seen entire congregations fall apart because the pastor and those in leadership insisted on doing things in such a heavy handed fashion.
Let me try to give examples without raising blame or pointing fingers (too much). Google "united pentecostal" and "cult." Look at the specific cases that are usually cited by some of the web sites you find. We all are probably familiar (and some what sick) of reading about some of these cases. Look at the individual churches and circumstances that occured.
I will contend that while, yes these are problematic situations, however the instances involved don't truly represent the UPC or "Apostolic" churches in general. In fact, the personalities are often known to have been "troublemakers" within the UPC. But these cases are real. peoples lives were impacted and this type of stuff happens a lot.
I think you, and others, are saying what I pointed out: "But they don't represent Apostolic churches." Yes! Good!
But they do happen. And the way to make it happen less is for us to speak out about it- not the anti-UPC and anti-Apostolic people.
And you are correct ("struggling like most other groups..."). Thankfully we are not as bad as many other groups. In fact, I think we're better than most. But we have to be proactive, especially in a media dominated society. We have to be the ones out front condemning the things that are wrong.
Can you imagine the difference it would have made for the Catholic church if their bishops had jumped on the first set of pedophile priests and made examples out of them? It would have saved them $6 Billion dollars and a lot of grief. We have to do for ourselves what those men failed to do for themselves.
In defence of Timmy, not that he asked for nor even needs my help...
His version is not all that "skewed." It may be, and I hope that this is the case, that what he describes is different from your experience. His précis does describe what a very large number of people have also described as their experiences.
Wait a minute my father was an atheist, and so were a large majority of his friends. He and his crew would have told you that it was more an experience with religious people as a whole. You are looking at the bug on the leaf by insisting that conservative, standard preaching Pentecostals have a large number of people adversely affected by their group. I would go further that in the time we are living in people are saying that all religion is adversely affecting the world as a whole. With failures like Juanita Bynum, Randy and Paula White, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jimmy Bakker the liberal Charismatic movement is not winning any roses. I believe as the stock market continues to overheat and mortgages are blowing out left and right, and more financial problems continue to slam into this country we shall see people returning to a more stable Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Given the fact that we are failing to retain our young people and even most of our converts I think it's healthy for us to re-evaluate the way we do things. In other words, are we coming up short of God's expectations in some way?
Will I lose my daughters if I tell them they can't hang out down in Fort Lauderdale city? Please, this is about relationship with the Holy Ghost and getting into the Word of God. People want the Word, and they fall in love with the Holy Ghost. This is about the persuasion of the Lord drawing all men nigh. I don't have to reinvent the wheel, I just need to hit the streets everyday and keep doing Bible studies and baptizing people who WANT to change their lives. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is preach the Word and let God give the increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Rather than looking at the "legalist" as the one who has "gone the extra mile," I think Timmy is suggesting that the "legalist" has simply "gone the wrong way."
That would not be correct, because anyone from a motocross racer to the woman who collects Hummel figuriens when you love something you become fanatical about it, and when the elders help with leading and teaching with balance, everyone is happier.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Wait a minute my father was an atheist, and so were a large majority of his friends. He and his crew would have told you that it was more an experience with religious people as a whole. You are looking at the bug on the leaf by insisting that conservative, standard preaching Pentecostals have a large number of people adversely affected by their group.
I have not said that (in bold above). I have said that "legalists" have "gone the wrong way." See below: your comments about "balanced..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
I would go further that in the time we are living in people are saying that all religion is adversely affecting the world as a whole. With failures like Juanita Bynum, Randy and Paula White, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jimmy Bakker the liberal Charismatic movement is not winning any roses. I believe as the stock market continues to overheat and mortgages are blowing out left and right, and more financial problems continue to slam into this country we shall see people returning to a more stable Christianity.
You are correct about the failings you cite, and I hope you are correct about the "returning to a more stable Christianity..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
Will I lose my daughters if I tell them they can't hang out down in Fort Lauderdale city?
I can only guess that this is not the place that I would want my daughter to hang out either... But giving that guidance to young people is not "legalism." You are constructing strawmen and then knocking them down- and I agree, knock those guys down. But getting back to "legalism..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
Please, this is about relationship with the Holy Ghost and getting into the Word of God. People want the Word, and they fall in love with the Holy Ghost. This is about the persuasion of the Lord drawing all men nigh. I don't have to reinvent the wheel, I just need to hit the streets everyday and keep doing Bible studies and baptizing people who WANT to change their lives. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is preach the Word and let God give the increase.
What you describe here is the antithesis of legalism. You are talking about a real faith held in one's heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
That would not be correct, because anyone from a motocross racer to the woman who collects Hummel figuriens when you love something you become fanatical about it, and when the elders help with leading and teaching with balance, everyone is happier.
Becoming "fanatical" about your relationship with Jesus Christ is not "legalism." Legalism happens when the relationship is lost or marginalized and the person then grinds down on their own particular set of standards or rules to try and enforce their own cultural views.
I have not said that (in bold above). I have said that "legalists" have "gone the wrong way." See below: your comments about "balanced..."
You are correct about the failings you cite, and I hope you are correct about the "returning to a more stable Christianity..."
I can only guess that this is not the place that I would want my daughter to hang out either... But giving that guidance to young people is not "legalism." You are constructing strawmen and then knocking them down- and I agree, knock those guys down. But getting back to "legalism..."
What you describe here is the antithesis of legalism. You are talking about a real faith held in one's heart.
Becoming "fanatical" about your relationship with Jesus Christ is not "legalism." Legalism happens when the relationship is lost or marginalized and the person then grinds down on their own particular set of standards or rules to try and enforce their own cultural views.
Wait a minute since definitions are being lost among us we need to know what YOU consider "Legalism".
By me asking you to define this term we can see where this discussion is leading.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
But legalism is not simply trying too hard to obey God. Theologically, it is believing that following the law is how one is saved. Paul shoots it down nicely in Galatians 3. Legalism masquerades as righteousness and salvation, while cursing (says Paul) those who fall for it. Insidious.
Of course, nobody here says that's how you're saved. It's by repenting, being baptized in water in Jesus' name (making sure your baptizer doesn't use the dreaded "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" wording, or it won't "take"), being filled with the Holy Ghost. speaking in tongues, and by following all the rules for the rest of your life. Only they may not tell you that last part right away. That comes later. And exactly which rules to follow is subject to much debate, of course.
Hybrid Mode
