Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I believe ONLY ONE member of the Body of Christ has the rule over any other member in the Body of Christ, the Head, the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Denominated 'heads' are a silly man-made thing in the assembly of our spiritual fellowship in Christ.

There are countess dominions and authorities and headships in the created/temporal realm. We should obey all those RULERS.

God has not appointed rulers to bless his church, he has appointed servants. Servants who love him; bondservants.

So to answer you question directly would mean that I would have to accept your word structure as having application man-to-man in Christ. I wholehearted disagree with any man having RULE over any other man in the ministration of our roles in the Body of CHRIST.

In your way of asking...I would say NO. But you see I would be saying NO to the premise that God has appointed RULERS in addition to the HEAD of the Body --I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS DONE SUCH.

I believe in obeying RULERS.

So, "obey them that have rule over you for they watch for your soul" does not apply to you or does not apply at all?!

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

So, "obey them that have rule over you for they watch for your soul" does not apply to you or does not apply at all?!

no, it comes from a word choice for "leader or guide" that is the most regrettable choice for honest-hearted people trying to accountable to the Spirit that leads and guides them in all truth.

Barb, you believe God has appointed RULERS over other members of his own body, as service to his body, great, now just try to work out all the inconsistencies with other scriptural admonitions.

1. Tell me how you follow those rulers if they are OUT OF THE BOOK.

You might say, I would not follow them if they were out of the book!

Then I would reply, then they are NOT a God appointed RULER in your life. We do not get to pick and choose anything when it comes to a God-authored operation of authority in this life.

2. How do you not call any one master but you do call them RULERS? To make a ruler anything other than a master would require a PhD in wordsmithing.

3. If a pastor is a RULER over a God delegated flock, can a female 'subject' disobey her RULER in deference to her head, her covering, her husband? If she can, that RULER is not a RULER.

RULERS is a term that establishes a stumblingblock to individual accountability to our Lord and Saviour. If it works for you, great. I see it as a great detriment to the individuals moving and having their being in CHRIST. People never mature and go on to perfection, they sit at the RULER's feet, serving his calling, being made disciples unto his teaching.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

no, it comes from a word choice for "leader or guide" that is the most regrettable choice for honest-hearted people trying to accountable to the Spirit that leads and guides them in all truth.

Barb, you believe God has appointed RULERS over other members of his own body, as service to his body, great, now just try to work out all the inconsistencies with other scriptural admonitions.

1. Tell me how you follow those rulers if they are OUT OF THE BOOK.

You might say, I would not follow them if they were out of the book!

Then I would reply, then they are NOT a God appointed RULER in your life. We do not get to pick and choose anything when it comes to a God-authored operation of authority in this life.

2. How do you not call any one master but you do call them RULERS? To make a ruler anything other than a master would require a PhD in wordsmithing.

3. If a pastor is a RULER over a God delegated flock, can a female 'subject' disobey her RULER in deference to her head, her covering, her husband? If she can, that RULER is not a RULER.

RULERS is a term that establishes a stumblingblock to individual accountability to our Lord and Saviour. If it works for you, great. I see it as a great detriment to the individuals moving and having their being in CHRIST. People never mature and go on to perfection, they sit at the RULER's feet, serving his calling, being made disciples unto his teaching.

Bro. Pew, do you pastor a church?!

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

Bro. Pew, do you pastor a church?!

I have consistently avoided direct questions of this sort to protect my ability to speak candidly on topics that cross the normal grain of member-minister fellowships made up of 'churchs' that have been founded or are being overseen by a guy or group of guys.

Sorry for being non-responsive.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I have consistently avoided direct questions of this sort to protect my ability to speak candidly on topics that cross the normal grain of member-minister fellowships made up of 'churchs' that have been founded or are being overseen by a guy or group of guys.

Sorry for being non-responsive.

No problem...sorry for the personal question.

I asked mainly because of your comments. It would seem to this layperson that a pastor would have a different view than you re the portion of Scripture we are citing here.

Just my uneducated opinion...

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

No problem...sorry for the personal question.

I asked mainly because of your comments. It would seem to this layperson that a pastor would have a different view than you re the portion of Scripture we are citing here.

Just my uneducated opinion...

Barb, please revisit the guestions I asked of you a few posts back.

thanks.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Barb, please revisit the guestions I asked of you a few posts back.

thanks.

Okay...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

no, it comes from a word choice for "leader or guide" that is the most regrettable choice for honest-hearted people trying to accountable to the Spirit that leads and guides them in all truth.

Barb, you believe God has appointed RULERS over other members of his own body, as service to his body, great, now just try to work out all the inconsistencies with other scriptural admonitions.

1. Tell me how you follow those rulers if they are OUT OF THE BOOK.

You might say, I would not follow them if they were out of the book!

Then I would reply, then they are NOT a God appointed RULER in your life. We do not get to pick and choose anything when it comes to a God-authored operation of authority in this life.

2. How do you not call any one master but you do call them RULERS? To make a ruler anything other than a master would require a PhD in wordsmithing.

3. If a pastor is a RULER over a God delegated flock, can a female 'subject' disobey her RULER in deference to her head, her covering, her husband? If she can, that RULER is not a RULER.

RULERS is a term that establishes a stumblingblock to individual accountability to our Lord and Saviour. If it works for you, great. I see it as a great detriment to the individuals moving and having their being in CHRIST. People never mature and go on to perfection, they sit at the RULER's feet, serving his calling, being made disciples unto his teaching.

In my inept way, I will try to respond, Bro. Pew, and I hope my doing so does not bring offense. I am ever mindful that when I post, it is not only to the one I am addressing...lurkers are everywhere.

1. RE rulers who are 'out of the Book'...

I disagree that we do not get to pick and choose when it comes to authority. I choose who will pastor me by reason of my membership. A pastor chooses to submit to district and national authority by reason of their alignment with that particular group.

Once I have made that decision, and they remain true to the tenets of the Scripture, I am bound to that. If I don't like it, I can choose to move on, but while there, submission to those who have rule is Word.

I suppose the crux of the matter is deciding if one is 'in the Book'. Who makes this determination?!

For one who may not believe that another man has any right to decide what is best for them, or silence them, or rebuke them, they will make their choices accordingly.

For those who believe that elders have biblical authority to make certain decisions, they likewise will make their choices.

2. RE master and ruler...

I call no one master save Jesus Christ. In like manner, I call no man ruler. That does NOT take away from individuals having rule.

Respectfully, Bro. Pew, YOU are the wordsmith in this and most discussions and I bow to your superiority in many areas...just not this one.

3. RE married women obeying pastor and husband...

I am not married and have never been, however, one need not be a bird to know that they fly south in the winter. So strictly from my expereince as a woman, and from my meager head knowledge, I will attempt to answer this.

An unsaved man who tells his wife she cannot pray is like telling a student they cannot pray in school...I can pray anywhere and you not even know I am praying.

For this unsaved husband to not permit her to attend church, there are many and often quite severe circumstances involved, thus I would be hesitant to make a hard and fast rule about that...every situation is different.

And so that is my answer...every situation is different, however, this does not remove the position and right of pastoral authority.

continued...

[Barb]

continued...


A final note re authority and submission...

The Scripture is clear in Matthew 18:18-20, "Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

We first see mention of binding and loosing in Matthew 16:19 where Jesus grants Peter this authority. Matthew 18 gives more detail on this subject as we hear Jesus teach His disciples about discipline in the Church which was, at that time not yet established.

He speaks about greatness in the Kingdom (vs. 1-10), His love for the straying sheep (vs. 11-14), settling disputes among Saints (vs. 15-20), and forgiveness (vs. 21-35).

When Jesus said "bind and loose," the disciples knew these were words used by the rabbis that meant to forbid and permit.

He gave them a standard set of instructions for dealing with disputes, unruly Saints, and sinning Saints. Along with this, He gave them the authority to censure...to bind or forbid a member of the Body of Christ.

If the leadership feels that the offense warrants it, the individual is to be counseled, censured, sat down , and possibly asked to leave (I Corinthians 5:10-13). In other words, the offender is bound.

Whatever the officers of the church forbid, is forbidden in heaven. We are to be reminded that discipline is not the end, for the restoration of the offender is God’s plan. If the sinning or mistaken Saint truly repents, they are to be loosed from their censure, and the decision made by the pastor is loosed (permitted) in heaven.

Jesus followed binding and loosing with, "...if two of you shall agree as touching any thing that ye shall ask, it shall be done..." (v. 19).

He was remaining in His discourse on disciplining Saints who err, and said that the church leaders should come to an agreement on the appropriate action.

Agreement means coming to a mutual arrangement; the state of being in accord. We are to be of the same mind and heart, in one accord, and it should be acceptable to all who are in authority.

In other words, don’t let there be dissention in the ranks over who is to be bound and who is to be loosed. Set people down or remove them entirely, but pray and agree about the best course of action regarding the offense. God so desires to bless His people that if even two or three come into agreement of the matter, He will be right there in their midst.

We grow into maturity by following God's plan...to me, it is just that simple.

Just my thoughts here, Bro. Pew.