Do you hafta go through the pastor?

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times; a case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times. A case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

I've heard of this teaching. There is a pastor in Pennsylvania (I believe) who wants to go to this system. At the risk of being wrong, I believe it was Rev David Huston.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times; a case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

I wondered how long it would be before the "elders" thing would get brought up. I know it is a serious bone of contention among apostolics.

[tbpew]

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

[tbpew]

Do guides need authority over the people they are guiding...NO!
They are vessels that yield their will to the Spirit to allow their life to manifest God's word and works through them. Choice, from within opportunity, is revealed throughout God's handiwork.

There is no choice in the life of an obedient subject living in a Ruler's realm.

Choosing to follow someone who journeyed a path before you, is not about OBEYING them in any form or fashion. Such an assessment (determining if it is appropriate or safe to follow someone), is made exclusively within the spirit of the individual follower.

I submit that the principle outcome God has purposed is a body comprised of healthy individual members that are fitly joined together by being led by his spirit in their calling. The listing of Eph 4:11 is a very sensible sequential listing of elements involving the necessary components to establish and maintain a healthy, prosperous body.

God's has provided gifting servants to GUIDE individual members in what they must consider for their OWN calling and election in CHRIST.

Followers
Being lead
Guides/leaders
light unto a path

these are qualities of an individual navigating a journey and are NOT applicable to SUBJECTS within the dominion of a RULER.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by tbpew

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

Brother, thank you for these definitions. I'm going to print out this post and compare it to what I read in the word of God and make notes.

There is a fine line between being a ruler and a guide, in my opinion.

The group of men who gathered at Jerusalem to discuss the debate about Gentiles having to keep the law and be circumcised would be an interesting example to use in making a one's case of rule vs guide. Do you have any thoughts on that event?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

Actually you did a fine job of providing simplicity here. Great job for being more suitable (personally, I didn't think you wanted to be simple, but you had to be simple before you could get complicated. The water is shallow before you get to the deep) Whats the difference between a guide and a leader pewy, or is this another one of those questions that you have to get deep with? (Pewy, if you don't wanna play nice with me, then it would be better not to respond to anyone else with a little sidenote to me)

[tbpew]

bro easty,
you have likely subscribed the wrong motive to me and I certainly have played nice.

but thanks again for the counsels on how to respond.