Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

my schedule for the balance of the afternoon will not provide access online.

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.

The engagement I have had so far from GL, CS, and Easty are evidence that the specificity I have tried to bring into the discussion is strictly met with..."what part of Heb 13:17 don't you understand?" If that is the primary basis of rebuttal from those who preceive they sit in Moses' seat, I would be introducing countless little side branches if I were to attempt, high level surmising. This, IMO, is the inherent 'death-song' on discussion boards. Such efforts more often spawn silly posting exchanges like ...."well not all pastors are like dictatorial rulers!". Great, now what did that view provide to support or deny the PRINCIPLE being discussed? Sorry, I would rather trust more words for those who care to read them then to make high level summaries that just open up a feeding frenzy for little foxes.

The readers who are hearing what I am saying from within their confidence that their RULERship is God-ordained, have little capacity to consider the cause/effect of such an assertion made within the body of Christ. To even insinuate that a discussion of authority can be conducted without a specific delineation of applicable boundaries and realms, is a position the is being purposely evasive.

How does one begin to establish any kind of beach-head for consideration when the words being presented are viewed as having their motivation in causing division between a ruler and his subjects? That is DOA proposition in the ears of the occupants of Moses' seat.

Sorry, Barb. That is the way things are from my view. I will respond to your question to me in your last post and then respectfully depart from my direct exchange with you to avoid any space where a unintended wound may be inflicted.

sincerely,
tbpew

Bro. Pew, I am sorry if you feel in any way that my comments were silly, but in my uneducated understanding of what you have posted, what other opinion can one take?!

Your opinions HERE have not wounded me...please feel free to post away.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

my schedule for the balance of the afternoon will not provide access online.

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.

The engagement I have had so far from GL, CS, and Easty are evidence that the specificity I have tried to bring into the discussion is strictly met with..."what part of Heb 13:17 don't you understand?" If that is the primary basis of rebuttal from those who preceive they sit in Moses' seat, I would be introducing countless little side branches if I were to attempt, high level surmising. This, IMO, is the inherent 'death-song' on discussion boards. Such efforts more often spawn silly posting exchanges like ...."well not all pastors are like dictatorial rulers!". Great, now what did that view provide to support or deny the PRINCIPLE being discussed? Sorry, I would rather trust more words for those who care to read them then to make high level summaries that just open up a feeding frenzy for little foxes.

The readers who are hearing what I am saying from within their confidence that their RULERship is God-ordained, have little capacity to consider the cause/effect of such an assertion made within the body of Christ. To even insinuate that a discussion of authority can be conducted without a specific delineation of applicable boundaries and realms, is a position the is being purposely evasive.

How does one begin to establish any kind of beach-head for consideration when the words being presented are viewed as having their motivation in causing division between a ruler and his subjects? That is DOA proposition in the ears of the occupants of Moses' seat.

Sorry, Barb. That is the way things are from my view. I will respond to your question to me in your last post and then respectfully depart from my direct exchange with you to avoid any space where a unintended wound may be inflicted.

sincerely,
tbpew

If you can give me an honest explanation of Heb 13:17 and why "pastors" are even mentioned in the bible I wouldn't keep prodding you for an explanation. In case you haven't noticed, since I've been on the AFF I have apologized to people for being a bit offensive. I am here to learn from everyone, if you can provide something useful to this discussion with simplicity, then I am willing to learn. I might be conservative, but I am fair with the information that I recieve. I am more objectionable than you are willing to give me credit for. I have read the entire thread, and somehow I am not understanding what you are trying to say. I was trying to be patient with what you were saying, but I was getting somewhat frustrated because of your scholarly exhortation and grammar. Could you simplify?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tbpew

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.
...

Sorry to whittle down your fine discussion; but I think you hit on something important there. How would an analysis of "God's delivery system" through time appear?

Especially today we are consumers of media. But believers of all times have been dependant upon media or a "delivery system" for gaining access to those things that God is saying to them.

That "delivery system" at times may have just been a lone voice crying out against injustice (Jeremiah) or an elaborate state run Temple enterprise with processions and elaborate sacrifices and ritual (not forgetting that the OT sacrifices usually entailed a communal feast).

Today, how do we access this "delivery system?" More importantly - how can we more effectively use this system from both the transmission and the receiving sides?

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times; a case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times. A case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

I've heard of this teaching. There is a pastor in Pennsylvania (I believe) who wants to go to this system. At the risk of being wrong, I believe it was Rev David Huston.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times; a case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

I wondered how long it would be before the "elders" thing would get brought up. I know it is a serious bone of contention among apostolics.

[tbpew]

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

[tbpew]

Do guides need authority over the people they are guiding...NO!
They are vessels that yield their will to the Spirit to allow their life to manifest God's word and works through them. Choice, from within opportunity, is revealed throughout God's handiwork.

There is no choice in the life of an obedient subject living in a Ruler's realm.

Choosing to follow someone who journeyed a path before you, is not about OBEYING them in any form or fashion. Such an assessment (determining if it is appropriate or safe to follow someone), is made exclusively within the spirit of the individual follower.

I submit that the principle outcome God has purposed is a body comprised of healthy individual members that are fitly joined together by being led by his spirit in their calling. The listing of Eph 4:11 is a very sensible sequential listing of elements involving the necessary components to establish and maintain a healthy, prosperous body.

God's has provided gifting servants to GUIDE individual members in what they must consider for their OWN calling and election in CHRIST.

Followers
Being lead
Guides/leaders
light unto a path

these are qualities of an individual navigating a journey and are NOT applicable to SUBJECTS within the dominion of a RULER.