Water baptism, can you agree with this statement?

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The body of sin ... is a growth that the blood missed at repentance???

Too deep for me Dan, care to elaborate?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

Too deep for me Dan, care to elaborate?

According to the Sacramentalist Baptismal Regenerationist ... baptism remits/washes away/blots out sin ....

While the sins are forgiven at repentance .... the old man ... body of sin ... is still hanging out ... like a growth... that only a properly administered water baptism can circumcise ...

it's base on faulty reasoning of what circumcision means throughout scripture and poor hermeneutics and understanding of Colossians 2:11-12

One writer refutes this false teaching as follows.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Baptismal%20Regeneration/bap_reg-refuted.htm

In Col. 2:11-12, we read, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him, through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead"

In the Old Testament, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a minor surgical operation that involved the cutting away of the flesh. Circumcision symbolized death to the flesh by the "cutting away of sins", so in New Testament symbolism, it refers to spiritual circumcision. "Made without hands" meant that no human effort was involved, rather, it is God's work The circumcision refers to His death, meaning when one believes their sin is cut off. It also relates to Christ's death which He Himself called a "baptism". This term did not mean a water baptism, but one of death and burial (Romans 2:29): "Circumcision is that of the heart in the Spirit, not in the letter. . .", which the ceremony of baptism depicts. The Bible clearly teaches that circumcision is a work of the Spirit which circumcises since it is God’s work. This spiritual circumcision is the invisible work that baptism symbolizes.

Again, baptism points back to the work of Christ since it is the circumcision of Christ (not baptism) that achieves this for a believer. (In the same way, Rom. 6 refers to describing the occurrence of the Gospel.)

In the New Testament, we find that baptism is the sign or seal of the New Covenant, and functions like a substitute for circumcision of the Old Covenant. For the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17:21) it was mandatory. Under the Mosaic Covenant (Ex. 12:48), it was to show submission to the Law of Moses. Christ commissioned His disciples to go, teach, make disciples, and baptize. Just as circumcision was required of proselytes converting to Judaism, in a like manner, baptism was required as a visible mark of entrance into the New Covenant.

These two rites have similar meanings. Circumcision was characterized by a cutting away of sin and a change of heart. Baptism is a picture of the washing away of sin.

"Baptism did away with the need for circumcision because it signified the union of the believer with Christ, thereby cutting off the old nature. A lesser circumcision has been replaced by a greater circumcision. The spiritual circumcision promised under the Old Testament Covenant has become a reality under the New Covenant through baptism". (George BeasIey-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament).

Again, baptism is only a visible symbol of what occurred by the previous reality, which is the real substance. It points back to Christ.


---------------------------------------------

What my sacramentalist brethren don't realize is that their Catholic forefathers concur with their position:

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

[QUOTEAmbrose of Milan


"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]). [/quote]

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

According to the Sacramentalist Baptismal Regenerationist ... baptism remits/washes away/blots out sin ....

While the sins are forgiven at repentance .... the old man ... body of sin ... is still hanging out ... like a growth... that only a properly administered water baptism can circumcise ...

it's base on faulty reasoning of what circumcision means throughout scripture and poor hermeneutics and understanding of Colossians 2:11-12

One writer refutes this false teaching as follows.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...eg-refuted.htm

In Col. 2:11-12, we read, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him, through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead"

In the Old Testament, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a minor surgical operation that involved the cutting away of the flesh. Circumcision symbolized death to the flesh by the "cutting away of sins", so in New Testament symbolism, it refers to spiritual circumcision. "Made without hands" meant that no human effort was involved, rather, it is God's work The circumcision refers to His death, meaning when one believes their sin is cut off. It also relates to Christ's death which He Himself called a "baptism". This term did not mean a water baptism, but one of death and burial (Romans 2:29): "Circumcision is that of the heart in the Spirit, not in the letter. . .", which the ceremony of baptism depicts. The Bible clearly teaches that circumcision is a work of the Spirit which circumcises since it is God’s work. This spiritual circumcision is the invisible work that baptism symbolizes.

Again, baptism points back to the work of Christ since it is the circumcision of Christ (not baptism) that achieves this for a believer. (In the same way, Rom. 6 refers to describing the occurrence of the Gospel.)

In the New Testament, we find that baptism is the sign or seal of the New Covenant, and functions like a substitute for circumcision of the Old Covenant. For the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17:21) it was mandatory. Under the Mosaic Covenant (Ex. 12:48), it was to show submission to the Law of Moses. Christ commissioned His disciples to go, teach, make disciples, and baptize. Just as circumcision was required of proselytes converting to Judaism, in a like manner, baptism was required as a visible mark of entrance into the New Covenant.

These two rites have similar meanings. Circumcision was characterized by a cutting away of sin and a change of heart. Baptism is a picture of the washing away of sin.

"Baptism did away with the need for circumcision because it signified the union of the believer with Christ, thereby cutting off the old nature. A lesser circumcision has been replaced by a greater circumcision. The spiritual circumcision promised under the Old Testament Covenant has become a reality under the New Covenant through baptism". (George BeasIey-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament).

Again, baptism is only a visible symbol of what occurred by the previous reality, which is the real substance. It points back to Christ.


---------------------------------------------

What my sacramentalist brethren don't realize is that their Catholic forefathers concur with their position:

Cyril of Jerusalem

[QUOTEAmbrose of Milan


"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

[/QUOTE]

Interesting. For what it's worth when the Jews have a gentile proselyte they circumcise them first and then baptize them by immersion.

[SDG]

Interesting. For what it's worth when the Jews have a gentile proselyte they circumcise them first and then baptize them by immersion.

It's worth a lot ... this means that circumcision comes before baptism.

Meaning ... Cornelius, under the New Covenant, had been quickened to life ... and circumcised of the heart prior to his baptism ....

It's no wonder Peter fussed with those who wanted physical circumcision in Acts 11 and 15.

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

It's worth a lot ... this means that circumcision comes before baptism.

Meaning ... Cornelius, under the New Covenant, had been quickened to life ... and circumcised of the heart prior to his baptism ....

It's no wonder Peter fussed with those who wanted physical circumcision in Acts 11 and 15.

But the 3 steppers in here seem to imply Cornelius got the HG on credit.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

But the 3 steppers in here seem to imply Cornelius got the HG on credit.

Or that is what you assume what the so called "three steppers" believe. I'm sorry that Peters teaching is wrong to you.