Romans 10:9

Adino · #1 01-04-2008, 03:35 AM

Mizpeh, you are correct. The imputation comes through faith in Christ alone. It was God's promise of the coming Messiah Abraham believed. The testimony of the Father is of Christ. Imputation comes when we accept the testimony God gave of his Son. It was Abraham's faith in the coming Christ which was imputed to him for righteousness.

Gen 15:4-6
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

1John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We have faith in God by accepting his word/testimony to be true.

Prax, do you believe ALL Orthodox Jews are justified because of their faith in YHWH?

Praxeas · #2 01-04-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

Mizpeh, you are correct. The imputation comes through faith in Christ alone. It was God's promise of the coming Messiah Abraham believed. The testimony of the Father is of Christ. Imputation comes when we accept the testimony God gave of his Son. It was Abraham's faith in the coming Christ which was imputed to him for righteousness.

Gen 15:4-6
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

1John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We have faith in God by accepting his word/testimony to be true.

Prax, do you believe ALL Orthodox Jews are justified because of their faith in YHWH?

No, but is that relevant? The bible clearly says Abraham was justified by his faith in God. He was looking ahead. Orthodox Jews have outright rejected Christ as Messiah. Christ is the Logos of God. He is God's representative....there is a reason why Jesus said "No man comes to the Father but by me" and "I am the Way, the truth and the Life"..Did Abraham need to have read all the works of Christ...the gospels....the account of his death, burial and resurrection, in order to be saved?

Remember Im talking about before the incarnation. The issue that is being missed here is they were justified by FAITH alone not by works. You said Mizpeh is right, but it seems she was arguing justification happens once they repent and are baptized....and I am saying it happens at faith before all else

mizpeh · #3 01-04-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

Mizpeh, you are correct. The imputation comes through faith in Christ alone. It was God's promise of the coming Messiah Abraham believed. The testimony of the Father is of Christ. Imputation comes when we accept the testimony God gave of his Son. It was Abraham's faith in the coming Christ which was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham's heir was Isaac. He believed God for the promise of a son, Isaac. The verses you quoted, well, I just don't see them as a prophesy of Christ or that Abraham's faith was in Christ. From what I understand Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because he believed the promise of God. It was that simple. His faith was not in Christ, Christ wasn't even born, but his faith was in God being able to do what He says He will do.

At least that's how I've always understood it.

Praxeas · #4 01-04-2008, 10:35 PM

are there two kinds of faith? faith in Christ to be saved and faith in God that he exists?

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

mizpeh · #5 01-04-2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

are there two kinds of faith? faith in Christ to be saved and faith in God that he exists?

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Faith in the Son of God is different than faith in God. The Son of God is God existing as a man and whose blood was shed on the cross.

Praxeas · #6 01-04-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Faith in the Son of God is different than faith in God. The Son of God is God existing as a man and whose blood was shed on the cross.

So my question is what does faith in God bring as opposd to faith in christ? How CAN God hear your prayers before you had faith in Christ having only faith in God?

Praxeas · #7 01-04-2008, 11:02 PM

BTW Abraham was justified by faith....justified when he believed God...justified when he left his old land and gods...justified when went to Moriah....see when it comes to salvation it speaks of being saved past tense...being saved present tense and will be saved future tense...it also speaks of salvation by faith alone apart from works before anything else...salvation from repentance. salvation from water baptism....

I think the western mind tries to hard to figure it all out instead of just accepting it. That is why I tell folks like christopher that I don't know of so and so was saved or not. The Thief on the cross was saved....not baptized or speaking in tongues....nor did he get down and offer a goat or a lamb or turtle dove or anything else...just hanging there with faith....had he survived he would have had to be baptized too...

Why do we need to quantify it all and comprehend it all and not rather just obey it all?

mizpeh · #8 01-04-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why do we need to quantify it all and comprehend it all and not rather just obey it all?

Why not both, Prax? I want to understand it and obey it.

I can patiently wait for God to help me understand these things. There was a time I couldn't wait on God and stopped trying to figure things out because I became frustrated. But now I've learned to be patient and grow in the knowledge of God little by little, precept upon precept.

mizpeh · #9 01-04-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So my question is what does faith in God bring as opposd to faith in christ? How CAN God hear your prayers before you had faith in Christ having only faith in God?

Prax,

I'm saying I didn't have righteousness imputed unto me when I prayed to God before I repented and became a Christian a good 6 months later.

I don't know how He heard my prayer because God doesn't hear the prayer of a sinner but He did. I would like to think because He was visiting me one last time in mercy.