David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Constant "lingo?" Sorry, Dan, you lost me on that one.

I appreciate you MOW. I mean that sincerely.

How would you take it, if your local church began to go through a rough time, with families leaving... and spectators looking on said you were only worried about losing your source of income? How would you take that? How would that feel?

I'm not sure if you belong to an organization (I have it in my mind that you don't... but I'm not certain) but if you did, and you appreciated that organization, in spite of it's faults... and someone ridiculed it by calling it's HQ the Vatican? How would that make you feel?

It's one thing for those inside to take issue, and sometimes joke around... I have been known to do it. When we elected our present GS it was around the same time as they had put a new Pope in the Catholic church... and I joked about smoke coming out of headquarters to let us know a new GS had been chosen. It's one thing for someone who is a part and appreciates their org. to joke, or even criticize.

I may someday be proven wrong, but I firmly believe that our current leaders in the UPCI are not hirelings.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I appreciate you MOW. I mean that sincerely.

How would you take it, if your local church began to go through a rough time, with families leaving... and spectators looking on said you were only worried about losing your source of income? How would you take that? How would that feel?

I'm not sure if you belong to an organization (I have it in my mind that you don't... but I'm not certain) but if you did, and you appreciated that organization, in spite of it's faults... and someone ridiculed it by calling it's HQ the Vatican? How would that make you feel?

It's one thing for those inside to take issue, and sometimes joke around... I have been known to do it. When we elected our present GS it was around the same time as they had put a new Pope in the Catholic church... and I joked about smoke coming out of headquarters to let us know a new GS had been chosen. It's one thing for someone who is a part and appreciates their org. to joke, or even criticize.

I may someday be proven wrong, but I firmly believe that our current leaders in the UPCI are not hirelings.

First of all, I have been around long enough to not get offended in the midst of discussions. Secondly, I have faced financial crises and have been criticized for action taken. In leadership, it always happens. I can take the heat. It is no different when independent churches (like the one I pastor) are criticized for some of the wackiness that goes on in independent circles. Not all are like that and not all at the "vatican" are like that either.

I spent 20yrs in the org and still have connections with people in high places in the org as well. MANY of them still refer to HQ as the "vatican." That has been taking place for years. It is a common term that others use. It was not meant to be offensive.

When you've been around as long as I have, you see many organizations do almost anything to preserve themselves. Organizations are not necessary to reach the world. The larger an organization gets the harder it is to hold to its founding principles of simplicity. The UPC was never intended to become what it is today. In my opinion, it is a bloated, top heavy organization that is rarely able to help the "little" guy at the bottom who is doing his best to eek out an existence and keep his family afloat let alone his church. He can't afford to get to many functions, therefore has very little voice in what happens. The "gap" from the top to the bottom has gotten wider and wider with time and it doesn't look like it is likely to close any time soon.

Everyone has a right to disagree with my opinion. Do a study on the life of organizations and you'll see what I mean.

Organizations are to serve US, not the other way around.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

First of all, I have been around long enough to not get offended in the midst of discussions. Secondly, I have faced financial crises and have been criticized for action taken. In leadership, it always happens. I can take the heat. It is no different when independent churches (like the one I pastor) are criticized for some of the wackiness that goes on in independent circles. Not all are like that and not all at the "vatican" are like that either.

I spent 20yrs in the org and still have connections with people in high places in the org as well. MANY of them still refer to HQ as the "vatican." That has been taking place for years. It is a common term that others use. It was not meant to be offensive.

When you've been around as long as I have, you see many organizations do almost anything to preserve themselves. Organizations are not necessary to reach the world. The larger an organization gets the harder it is to hold to its founding principles of simplicity. The UPC was never intended to become what it is today. In my opinion, it is a bloated, top heavy organization that is rarely able to help the "little" guy at the bottom who is doing his best to eek out an existence and keep his family afloat let alone his church. He can't afford to get to many functions, therefore has very little voice in what happens. The "gap" from the top to the bottom has gotten wider and wider with time and it doesn't look like it is likely to close any time soon.

Everyone has a right to disagree with my opinion. Do a study on the life of organizations and you'll see what I mean.

Organizations are to serve US, not the other way around.

I've been around a long time as well, though not as long as you. I don't get offended easily... and I'm not offended now... but it's hurtful to hear the things you've said. But, it's your right to say them... no one is debating that.

Your judgement of the men at the head of our org... is between you and God. It does hurt people who love their leadership and pray for them though.
(as I said previously... I have used the term Vatican and made jokes myself... but I'm a part of it. And I don't call down our leaders by likening them to hirelings, only interested in the money. I'd be lying if I didn't say it ticks me off when people do... especially those who are not a part of the UPCI... whether they were in the past or not.)

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I've been around a long time as well, though not as long as you. I don't get offended easily... and I'm not offended now... but it's hurtful to hear the things you've said. But, it's your right to say them... no one is debating that.

Your judgement of the men at the head of our org... is between you and God. It does hurt people who love their leadership and pray for them though.
(as I said previously... I have used the term Vatican and made jokes myself... but I'm a part of it. And I don't call down our leaders by likening them to hirelings, only interested in the money)

But MOW is correct. SOME of them are only interested in power, position and money - and not necessarily in that order.

How silly to get rid of the only Spanish editor in the building and then, three months later, announce the need for a new Spanish division that will need executives to run it?

The premise for the earlier layoff was money. Has the UPC come into a large lump sum from somewhere? I doubt it. No, someone within the hallowed halls had an agenda, and did not care who was hurt in order to see that agenda pushed forward.

It's nothing short of disgusting.

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

I don't agree... I have no agenda myself.

But you know, if other UPCI folk have no problem with someone who is not in the org calling down our leadership and casting doubt on them... than so be it.

I do, however.

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I don't agree... I have no agenda myself.

But you know, if other UPCI folk have no problem with someone who is not in the org calling down our leadership and casting doubt on them... than so be it.

I do, however.

Who called leadership in question?

How can you deny anything MOW posted?

I can see disagreeing with his presentation, but facts are facts - and that is what he posted.

[TrueNorth]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

But MOW is correct. SOME of them are only interested in power, position and money - and not necessarily in that order.

How silly to get rid of the only Spanish editor in the building and then, three months later, announce the need for a new Spanish division that will need executives to run it?

The premise for the earlier layoff was money. Has the UPC come into a large lump sum from somewhere? I doubt it. No, someone within the hallowed halls had an agenda, and did not care who was hurt in order to see that agenda pushed forward.

It's nothing short of disgusting.

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

Mrs LPW isn't the only one in over their heads.
What does a Spanish editor in PPH have to do with a possible new Spanish Division.
Some questions for AE
What do the layoffs at PPH and the possibility of a Spanish Division have to do with each other?
Do you know who is requesting a Spanish Division?
Do you know where the budget would come from for a Spanish Division?
Do you know the prerequisites for the formation of a Spanish division?
Are you aware that we now have over 500 Spanish churches, some of them quite large?

PPH has bled red ink for years. It's time they finally caught up with the reality of the publishing world.
Speaking of agendas....

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by TrueNorth

Mrs LPW isn't the only one in over their heads.
What does a Spanish editor in PPH have to do with a possible new Spanish Division.
Some questions for AE
What do the layoffs at PPH and the possibility of a Spanish Division have to do with each other?
Do you know who is requesting a Spanish Division?
Do you know where the budget would come from for a Spanish Division?
Do you know the prerequisites for the formation of a Spanish division?
Are you aware that we now have over 500 Spanish churches, some of them quite large?

PPH has bled red ink for years. It's time they finally caught up with the reality of the publishing world.
Speaking of agendas....

Do you?

And, don't we all have agendas?

TrueNorth, I think your rose colored glasses are a little too dingy.

I am not disagreeing with the need for a new Spanish division. I never have. But just three months ago this same board agreed that we were bleeding money in Spanish lit that no one wanted to purchase. Now, all of a sudden, we need a new Spanish Division?

Does the left hand even know what the right is doing up there?

Get it together man.

[TrueNorth]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Do you?

And, don't we all have agendas?

TrueNorth, I think your rose colored glasses are a little too dingy.

I am not disagreeing with the need for a new Spanish division. I never have. But just three months ago this same board agreed that we were bleeding money in Spanish lit that no one wanted to purchase. Now, all of a sudden, we need a new Spanish Division?

Does the left hand even know what the right is doing up there?

Get it together man.

What does spanish lit have to do with a spanish division.
Spanish churches refused to buy the stuff because it didn't meet their needs. Why would you keep publishing it - and it is still available electronically I think - if nobody is going to buy it.
Tell the Spanish ministers to stop asking for a Spanish Division - that would do it.
BTW the Spanish Division is not a done deal. They've got to prove that they have the resources before it will ever become a reality.

Get it? Got it? Doubt it?

[ChicagoPastor]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Do you?

And, don't we all have agendas?

TrueNorth, I think your rose colored glasses are a little too dingy.

I am not disagreeing with the need for a new Spanish division. I never have. But just three months ago this same board agreed that we were bleeding money in Spanish lit that no one wanted to purchase. Now, all of a sudden, we need a new Spanish Division?

Does the left hand even know what the right is doing up there?

Get it together man.

Did they also tell you that the UPCI NEVER tried selling the literature to Central and South America??? That's where it would've really sold...

You had Churches here in the US that had to translate or use other material for over 20 years and then all of a sudden the UPC wanted people to change what they had been doing.....not that easy.