David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Bro....I love you....you know that....But is this constant lingo necessary?

Constant "lingo?" Sorry, Dan, you lost me on that one.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Constant "lingo?" Sorry, Dan, you lost me on that one.

I appreciate you MOW. I mean that sincerely.

How would you take it, if your local church began to go through a rough time, with families leaving... and spectators looking on said you were only worried about losing your source of income? How would you take that? How would that feel?

I'm not sure if you belong to an organization (I have it in my mind that you don't... but I'm not certain) but if you did, and you appreciated that organization, in spite of it's faults... and someone ridiculed it by calling it's HQ the Vatican? How would that make you feel?

It's one thing for those inside to take issue, and sometimes joke around... I have been known to do it. When we elected our present GS it was around the same time as they had put a new Pope in the Catholic church... and I joked about smoke coming out of headquarters to let us know a new GS had been chosen. It's one thing for someone who is a part and appreciates their org. to joke, or even criticize.

I may someday be proven wrong, but I firmly believe that our current leaders in the UPCI are not hirelings.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I appreciate you MOW. I mean that sincerely.

How would you take it, if your local church began to go through a rough time, with families leaving... and spectators looking on said you were only worried about losing your source of income? How would you take that? How would that feel?

I'm not sure if you belong to an organization (I have it in my mind that you don't... but I'm not certain) but if you did, and you appreciated that organization, in spite of it's faults... and someone ridiculed it by calling it's HQ the Vatican? How would that make you feel?

It's one thing for those inside to take issue, and sometimes joke around... I have been known to do it. When we elected our present GS it was around the same time as they had put a new Pope in the Catholic church... and I joked about smoke coming out of headquarters to let us know a new GS had been chosen. It's one thing for someone who is a part and appreciates their org. to joke, or even criticize.

I may someday be proven wrong, but I firmly believe that our current leaders in the UPCI are not hirelings.

First of all, I have been around long enough to not get offended in the midst of discussions. Secondly, I have faced financial crises and have been criticized for action taken. In leadership, it always happens. I can take the heat. It is no different when independent churches (like the one I pastor) are criticized for some of the wackiness that goes on in independent circles. Not all are like that and not all at the "vatican" are like that either.

I spent 20yrs in the org and still have connections with people in high places in the org as well. MANY of them still refer to HQ as the "vatican." That has been taking place for years. It is a common term that others use. It was not meant to be offensive.

When you've been around as long as I have, you see many organizations do almost anything to preserve themselves. Organizations are not necessary to reach the world. The larger an organization gets the harder it is to hold to its founding principles of simplicity. The UPC was never intended to become what it is today. In my opinion, it is a bloated, top heavy organization that is rarely able to help the "little" guy at the bottom who is doing his best to eek out an existence and keep his family afloat let alone his church. He can't afford to get to many functions, therefore has very little voice in what happens. The "gap" from the top to the bottom has gotten wider and wider with time and it doesn't look like it is likely to close any time soon.

Everyone has a right to disagree with my opinion. Do a study on the life of organizations and you'll see what I mean.

Organizations are to serve US, not the other way around.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

First of all, I have been around long enough to not get offended in the midst of discussions. Secondly, I have faced financial crises and have been criticized for action taken. In leadership, it always happens. I can take the heat. It is no different when independent churches (like the one I pastor) are criticized for some of the wackiness that goes on in independent circles. Not all are like that and not all at the "vatican" are like that either.

I spent 20yrs in the org and still have connections with people in high places in the org as well. MANY of them still refer to HQ as the "vatican." That has been taking place for years. It is a common term that others use. It was not meant to be offensive.

When you've been around as long as I have, you see many organizations do almost anything to preserve themselves. Organizations are not necessary to reach the world. The larger an organization gets the harder it is to hold to its founding principles of simplicity. The UPC was never intended to become what it is today. In my opinion, it is a bloated, top heavy organization that is rarely able to help the "little" guy at the bottom who is doing his best to eek out an existence and keep his family afloat let alone his church. He can't afford to get to many functions, therefore has very little voice in what happens. The "gap" from the top to the bottom has gotten wider and wider with time and it doesn't look like it is likely to close any time soon.

Everyone has a right to disagree with my opinion. Do a study on the life of organizations and you'll see what I mean.

Organizations are to serve US, not the other way around.

I've been around a long time as well, though not as long as you. I don't get offended easily... and I'm not offended now... but it's hurtful to hear the things you've said. But, it's your right to say them... no one is debating that.

Your judgement of the men at the head of our org... is between you and God. It does hurt people who love their leadership and pray for them though.
(as I said previously... I have used the term Vatican and made jokes myself... but I'm a part of it. And I don't call down our leaders by likening them to hirelings, only interested in the money. I'd be lying if I didn't say it ticks me off when people do... especially those who are not a part of the UPCI... whether they were in the past or not.)

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I've been around a long time as well, though not as long as you. I don't get offended easily... and I'm not offended now... but it's hurtful to hear the things you've said. But, it's your right to say them... no one is debating that.

Your judgement of the men at the head of our org... is between you and God. It does hurt people who love their leadership and pray for them though.
(as I said previously... I have used the term Vatican and made jokes myself... but I'm a part of it. And I don't call down our leaders by likening them to hirelings, only interested in the money)

But MOW is correct. SOME of them are only interested in power, position and money - and not necessarily in that order.

How silly to get rid of the only Spanish editor in the building and then, three months later, announce the need for a new Spanish division that will need executives to run it?

The premise for the earlier layoff was money. Has the UPC come into a large lump sum from somewhere? I doubt it. No, someone within the hallowed halls had an agenda, and did not care who was hurt in order to see that agenda pushed forward.

It's nothing short of disgusting.

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

[Jehoram]

I suspect we will hear of the need for a dues increase this fall. All sorts of pitiful stories will be told about how critical infrastructure is suffering because of lack of funds.

This sort of political begging gets old when you consider there are good men and women who are expected to be accountable for their own finances, and those of the churches they pastor. They are expected to give to every single program within the org, and made to feel guilty if they do not.

And then those men and women, who are completely submitted to authority, see a complete lack of accountability, submission and compassion on the part of the organization as a whole.

This situation plays out across denominational lines, and in various organizations, daily. But Pentecostal/Charismatic orgs seem to be the worst offenders on a very consistent basis.

It is comparable to Russian politics. The regimes change, but the situation and abuses never do.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

I don't agree... I have no agenda myself.

But you know, if other UPCI folk have no problem with someone who is not in the org calling down our leadership and casting doubt on them... than so be it.

I do, however.

[Jehoram]

If you will look carefully at the infrastructure of the newly formed WPF, you will find it is eerily similar to that of the UPC. Whose structure is a complete imitation of the AOG.

Many of the more maddening aspects of our current political spats can be traced to a single Pentecostal root. It has gone on for years, and as I said earlier, even if the regime changed tomorrow, and libs took the hill, abuse would still be common.

I don't pretend to understand it, but I do believe there is some genetic flaw in our strain of Christianity. I sometimes sense that same spirit of control in myself.

And it really bothers me.

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I don't agree... I have no agenda myself.

But you know, if other UPCI folk have no problem with someone who is not in the org calling down our leadership and casting doubt on them... than so be it.

I do, however.

Who called leadership in question?

How can you deny anything MOW posted?

I can see disagreeing with his presentation, but facts are facts - and that is what he posted.

[TrueNorth]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

But MOW is correct. SOME of them are only interested in power, position and money - and not necessarily in that order.

How silly to get rid of the only Spanish editor in the building and then, three months later, announce the need for a new Spanish division that will need executives to run it?

The premise for the earlier layoff was money. Has the UPC come into a large lump sum from somewhere? I doubt it. No, someone within the hallowed halls had an agenda, and did not care who was hurt in order to see that agenda pushed forward.

It's nothing short of disgusting.

And by the way MRS. LPW, I think you're in over your head here.

Mrs LPW isn't the only one in over their heads.
What does a Spanish editor in PPH have to do with a possible new Spanish Division.
Some questions for AE
What do the layoffs at PPH and the possibility of a Spanish Division have to do with each other?
Do you know who is requesting a Spanish Division?
Do you know where the budget would come from for a Spanish Division?
Do you know the prerequisites for the formation of a Spanish division?
Are you aware that we now have over 500 Spanish churches, some of them quite large?

PPH has bled red ink for years. It's time they finally caught up with the reality of the publishing world.
Speaking of agendas....